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'Normal' currency has severe problems which are important current issues for many and Bitcoin solves: [1], Prevention of access - e.g. Nationwide Bank unserved

by deepnet 10y ago

'Normal' currency has severe problems which are important current issues for many and Bitcoin solves: [1], Prevention of access - e.g. Nationwide Bank unserved queues & capped withdrawl in the UK on the days sub-prime hit is often the case in recession or bank runs. [2], Censorship of payee - e.g. the inability to donate to Wikileaks by any means except Bitcoin when 'collatoral damage' incited US Senators to successfully pressure payment processors worldwide. [3], Censorship of product: cash allows monetary civil disobedience like purchasing medical cannabis under prohibition. The idea that you can be prevented spending your money makes money fallible (& as [1] just when you need it most). If money has more power than ones vote this is wholly undemocratic. Under Capitalism markets are unfree without freedom to spend one's wealth.

richardwhiuk 10y ago
These are all also problems with bitcoin. [1] Bitcoin is very difficult to keep safe, so most people will store it on sites like Coinbase / MtGox. These sites will inevitably lend other people money, which will lead to the same issues, in exchange for interest. [2/3] Censorship of payee / Censorship of product. The perceived anonymity in bitcoin is largely fictional - you can extract the details of who paid who for what, and you can prevent someone exchanging bitcoin for fiat currency / goods. At the moment authorities simply don't care because the value of the transactions is insignificant in relation to hard currency. None of these 'problems' (and society in general doesn't care about these issues) are to do with the currency. The first one is endemic to the concept of a bank which can lend more money than it has, no matter what currency it deals in. The second two are social / regulatory problems which won't be fixed by some new crypto-anarchist dream.
- deepnet 10y ago
  Thought provoking, I mostly agree with the following caveats: I see the complete transparency of Bitcoin as a strength, it is certainly an antidote to the opacity of offshore / shell companies & tax dodging. [2] & [3] they can't prevent payment using Bitcoins but one could be arrested after the fact and detained without computer access. [3] This is why I said civil disobedience for [3]. Bitcoins are a public act. National Currencies like sterling are not implicity bad and actual cash notes can be used for [2] but electronically Sterling et al. lack a lot of freedom. [4] could be fees which currently dissallow national currency micro transactions, which have great utility for instance in a post advertising models & the micro-services revolution to come. Snarky to say 'crypto-anarchist dream', crypto means something other than an abbreviation for cryptography in that context e.g. crypto-fascism - which many fear democracies are secretly becoming. Bitcoin is not a dream it is a working implementation, usefully used daily. With Open Bazaar now running, a free global market is enabled - without freedom markets are unfair and not proper capitalism. Adam Smith best points out the issues with crony capitalism & regulatory monopolies. Bitcoin seems like healthy competition to me, national money is overly regulated in some ways and under regulated in others. Arguably to the benefit of the rich and powerful as most governments seem weak in the face of corruption by lobbying these days. Electronic (national currency) transactions are innefficient & overly costly, Bitcoin profoundly highlights this. [1] Bitcoin is provably safe, the safety of ones possessions and computer is the current issue of the day. The UK & US government are promoting breaking encryption and making everyone unsafe. It is good to have alternatives to help ensure regulatory over-reach can't happen as easily as it recently has.
  - richardwhiuk 10y ago
    No, crypto is crypto-anarchy does mean cryptography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-anarchism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-anarchism 'The "crypto" in crypto-anarchism should not be confused with the use of the prefix "crypto-" to indicate an ideology or system with an intentionally concealed or obfuscated "true nature". For example, some would use the term "crypto-fascist" to describe an individual or organization that holds fascist views and subscribes to fascist doctrine but conceals their agenda so long as these doctrines remain socially unacceptable.' The crypto in crypto-anarchism is intended to signal a link with cryptography.
    - deepnet 10y ago
      Yes you are correct, I was wrong, I had confused the term with Anarcho-syndicalism, thanks for putting me on the right track.

by deepnet 10y ago

richardwhiuk 10y ago

These are all also problems with bitcoin. [1] Bitcoin is very difficult to keep safe, so most people will store it on sites like Coinbase / MtGox. These sites will inevitably lend other people money, which will lead to the same issues, in exchange for interest. [2/3] Censorship of payee / Censorship of product. The perceived anonymity in bitcoin is largely fictional - you can extract the details of who paid who for what, and you can prevent someone exchanging bitcoin for fiat currency / goods. At the moment authorities simply don't care because the value of the transactions is insignificant in relation to hard currency. None of these 'problems' (and society in general doesn't care about these issues) are to do with the currency. The first one is endemic to the concept of a bank which can lend more money than it has, no matter what currency it deals in. The second two are social / regulatory problems which won't be fixed by some new crypto-anarchist dream.

deepnet 10y ago
Thought provoking, I mostly agree with the following caveats: I see the complete transparency of Bitcoin as a strength, it is certainly an antidote to the opacity of offshore / shell companies & tax dodging. [2] & [3] they can't prevent payment using Bitcoins but one could be arrested after the fact and detained without computer access. [3] This is why I said civil disobedience for [3]. Bitcoins are a public act. National Currencies like sterling are not implicity bad and actual cash notes can be used for [2] but electronically Sterling et al. lack a lot of freedom. [4] could be fees which currently dissallow national currency micro transactions, which have great utility for instance in a post advertising models & the micro-services revolution to come. Snarky to say 'crypto-anarchist dream', crypto means something other than an abbreviation for cryptography in that context e.g. crypto-fascism - which many fear democracies are secretly becoming. Bitcoin is not a dream it is a working implementation, usefully used daily. With Open Bazaar now running, a free global market is enabled - without freedom markets are unfair and not proper capitalism. Adam Smith best points out the issues with crony capitalism & regulatory monopolies. Bitcoin seems like healthy competition to me, national money is overly regulated in some ways and under regulated in others. Arguably to the benefit of the rich and powerful as most governments seem weak in the face of corruption by lobbying these days. Electronic (national currency) transactions are innefficient & overly costly, Bitcoin profoundly highlights this. [1] Bitcoin is provably safe, the safety of ones possessions and computer is the current issue of the day. The UK & US government are promoting breaking encryption and making everyone unsafe. It is good to have alternatives to help ensure regulatory over-reach can't happen as easily as it recently has.
- richardwhiuk 10y ago
  No, crypto is crypto-anarchy does mean cryptography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-anarchism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-anarchism 'The "crypto" in crypto-anarchism should not be confused with the use of the prefix "crypto-" to indicate an ideology or system with an intentionally concealed or obfuscated "true nature". For example, some would use the term "crypto-fascist" to describe an individual or organization that holds fascist views and subscribes to fascist doctrine but conceals their agenda so long as these doctrines remain socially unacceptable.' The crypto in crypto-anarchism is intended to signal a link with cryptography.
  - deepnet 10y ago
    Yes you are correct, I was wrong, I had confused the term with Anarcho-syndicalism, thanks for putting me on the right track.