7 ms·

I feel like the size = safety is fallacious. Size can equal safety, but its not a guarantee. Sure I would not want to get hit by a 3 ton lifted SUV with ranch s

by S_A_P 11y ago

I feel like the size = safety is fallacious. Size can equal safety, but its not a guarantee. Sure I would not want to get hit by a 3 ton lifted SUV with ranch style bumpers on it. I would feel that way even if what I were driving was a 3 ton suv with the same bumpers. There was an NHTSA video a few years back of a modern chevy impala hitting a 1959 impala and the much larger 59 getting demolished, while the new one had much more survivable damage. Safety cages, and metallurgy have made cars much safer, even small ones. I drive a mid sized sedan, and feel that I have a pretty reasonable chance of surviving a crash so long as I am not hit by a vehicle that is so tall the bumper goes through my windows and doesn't hit any significant metal surface of my car.

dv_dt 11y ago
This seems like relevant data. Particularly the "Driver deaths per million registered passenger vehicles" broken down by size in larger categories of car, pickup, SUV. Though I think they mix the data a bit w.r.t the contribution of mass vs volume. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/passenger-vehicles http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalit... It seems like if you are in an accident, an SUV as a class is indeed safer (but not necessarily the largest SUV interestingly enough). But the other thing that this data doesn't seem to say is if one class of vehicle has a higher accident rate than another. Without that it's difficult to say for sure if one is safer driving around one type of vehicle or another.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
akgerber 11y ago
The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck
JshWright 11y ago
The thing 'size' gets you is crumple zones. A bigger vehicle has a lot more material that can be engineered to deform and absorb the energy of the impact, spreading the deceleration over a longer period of time. A small car can be designed to prevent intrusion into the passenger compartment, but it can't do anything about the g-forces of the collision (which can seriously ruin your day...).
- vvanders 11y ago
  Yup, it's important to note that with Electric Vehicles you get more crumple zone too, which is partly why Tesla has such a high safety rating.
  - schwabacher 11y ago
    And more mass (the battery)
- stcredzero 11y ago
  The thing 'size' gets you is crumple zones. A bigger vehicle has a lot more material that can be engineered to deform and absorb the energy of the impact Not the only thing. Recall your high school physics. Crank through the basic motion equations for inelastic equations. The more massive object experiences less change in momentum. All things being equal, passengers of the more massive vehicle are going to experience lower g-forces.
  - rimantas 11y ago
    g-force depends on acceleration (or in this case, deceleration) by definition. Deceleration is change in speed over time for it to occur. The whole purpose of the crumple zones is to maximize that time and thus reducing g-force.
  - JshWright 11y ago
    Not to be overly pedantic, but I intentionally said "size" not "mass". As car manufacturers increasingly use aluminum and various composites in place of steel, bigger isn't always heavier.
mywittyname 11y ago
Safety also works both ways in a multi car situation. You're better off hitting a new Golf in your 90s Corolla than another 90s Corolla. Also, a little talked about statistic is that most vehicle fatalities occur in single car accidents. Turns out, even a big ol' SUV is more forgiving than a telephone pole.
overcast 11y ago
Have you seen the smart car crashes? Those cages can survive head on 60mph crashes to a brick wall. The issue here is that the soft human inside will not. Larger cars incorporate crumple zones, which absorb a ton of the impact, while small cars with extremely strong frames do not. The passenger absorbs all the energy = death.
- taneq 11y ago
  A slight detour, but this always bugged me when Lois was falling to her death and Superman would catch her an inch off the ground. Well done, Superman, you just broke your girlfriend into three pieces with your arms.
  - mjevans 11y ago
    That's just one of many areas where readers/viewers willingly suspend disbelief. Superman is supposed to be able to do that; that's one of the benefits of being beyond human is (for him). A literal reality distortion field is actually the best explanation for all of the exceptions to physics that happen around him; Lois passing in to that bubble while being saved is just one more thing on the list.
Someone1234 11y ago
This issue was covered in great depth when the Smart Car (e.g. Fortwo) got popular in Europe. Smart Cars have a lot of safety features, seat belts, airbags (4x), ABS, stability control, but the question was really about impact distribution. They put in a tridion protection cell[0] and moved the engine to the back to offer SOME crumple at the front. The Euro NCAP rated it 4/5, IIHS rated it "good" but it later failed the partial frontal collision test ("poor"). A Smart Car likely would do alright in most collisions. Although it somewhat benefits from the large crumple zones of every other vehicle has on the road. If two Smart Cars collided head on, the results might be worse than if a Smart Car collided with any other vehicle type. That all being said, just because Smart managed it, doesn't mean every small car is equally safe. Without the tridion cell and SOME crumple zone, it would be a much less safe vehicle. [0] http://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm http://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm
- Shebanator 11y ago
  The IIHS published a study[0] a little more than a year ago which found that the Smart Car wasn't actually that bad in terms of driver deaths per million registered vehicle years (2011 and equivalent earlier models, 2009-12). In its class (which only had 3 cars), the Mini was safer than the Smart but the Hyundai Accent was much much worse. But there were lots of bigger cars that were at the same rating or worse: * Buick Lacrosse 2WD * Cadillac DTS * Cadillac Escalade 4WD * Chevrolet Camaro * Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Ext 4WD * Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Crew 4WD * Chevrolet Suburban 1500 2WD * Ford Expedition 2WD * Ford F-150 Super 4WD 39 * Mercury Grand Marquis * Toyota Avalon * Toyota Tundra Crew Max 2WD [0] http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Driver_DeathRates_sr5001_emb.pdf http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Driver_DeathRates_sr5001_e...
- Retric 11y ago
  If your driving in a city and never break 45mph then overall risks change significantly. I drive a relatively small car for the US, and it's about the minimum I would consider safe at 70MPH. But, if you are spending 98% of your time in the city then simply renting a larger car becomes very viable. You can rent a mid size SUV at ~600$ per week and for a longer vacation you can upsize for minimal cost. Further, if your flying somewhere your car becomes meaningless anyway. PS: Remember a tiny electric could end up saving you 250+$ / month.
treehau5 11y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLfK35O91gE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLfK35O91gE a honda fit versus a honda accord of the same year. It's pretty clear which one would take less damage.
knz 11y ago
I understand your point that modern vehicles are relatively safe, but after seeing the result of a semi truck taking out a pickup truck on the Interstate yesterday I am seriously considering my choice to drive a compact vehicle. I assume larger vehicles have larger/longer crumple zones compared to compact vehicles and that higher vehicles have less chance of going under other vehicles? Of course it's zero sum if everyone drives larger vehicles but I can't force the local authorities to invest in better public transportation so I don't even need to drive to work.
- AdrianB1 11y ago
  If you want to minimize the effects of the impact with a semi then the only real option is another semi; a 1 ton car or a 3 ton car makes no difference being hit by a 40 ton truck, but the 1 ton car consumes much less fuel/energy.
  - knz 11y ago
    It was hit from the side I think? The height of the pickup definitely made a difference because most of the cabin was sitting up on the median rather than squished into the barrier like the rest of the truck. Your point about the weight is a good one in most circumstances though!
- peppaz 11y ago
  Not to be a Debbie Downer - but about 5 years ago my two good friends were driving in a medium sized car in Brooklyn, when an Expedition crossed the double yellow going about 60 miles an hour and literally ran over the entire drivers side half of the car, flattening it. The driver sadly died while the passenger went unscathed. The next day, my Dad sold my sister's tiny, low-riding Saturn and got her a higher-riding CRV. I don't blame him, and now riding in low-sitting cars frightens me a tiny bit on the highways.
- tomtang0514 11y ago
  I agree your point. larger cars have great advantage in a crash due to crumple zones. And even though some compact cars has great crash test result, it doesn't mean they're safe enough to survive a highway crash since most if not all crash tests are done under 50mph. BTW, just a reminder that pickup trucks are body-on-frame structure which is design for more towing capacity. Unibody structure on most modern cars and SUV's are safer in general. If you check this list http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List you'll see pickup is worse than even compact cars in crash test.

by S_A_P 11y ago

dv_dt 11y ago

This seems like relevant data. Particularly the "Driver deaths per million registered passenger vehicles" broken down by size in larger categories of car, pickup, SUV. Though I think they mix the data a bit w.r.t the contribution of mass vs volume. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/passenger-vehicles http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalit... It seems like if you are in an accident, an SUV as a class is indeed safer (but not necessarily the largest SUV interestingly enough). But the other thing that this data doesn't seem to say is if one class of vehicle has a higher accident rate than another. Without that it's difficult to say for sure if one is safer driving around one type of vehicle or another.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

akgerber 11y ago

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck

JshWright 11y ago

The thing 'size' gets you is crumple zones. A bigger vehicle has a lot more material that can be engineered to deform and absorb the energy of the impact, spreading the deceleration over a longer period of time. A small car can be designed to prevent intrusion into the passenger compartment, but it can't do anything about the g-forces of the collision (which can seriously ruin your day...).

vvanders 11y ago
Yup, it's important to note that with Electric Vehicles you get more crumple zone too, which is partly why Tesla has such a high safety rating.
- schwabacher 11y ago
  And more mass (the battery)
stcredzero 11y ago
The thing 'size' gets you is crumple zones. A bigger vehicle has a lot more material that can be engineered to deform and absorb the energy of the impact Not the only thing. Recall your high school physics. Crank through the basic motion equations for inelastic equations. The more massive object experiences less change in momentum. All things being equal, passengers of the more massive vehicle are going to experience lower g-forces.
- rimantas 11y ago
  g-force depends on acceleration (or in this case, deceleration) by definition. Deceleration is change in speed over time for it to occur. The whole purpose of the crumple zones is to maximize that time and thus reducing g-force.
- JshWright 11y ago
  Not to be overly pedantic, but I intentionally said "size" not "mass". As car manufacturers increasingly use aluminum and various composites in place of steel, bigger isn't always heavier.

mywittyname 11y ago

Safety also works both ways in a multi car situation. You're better off hitting a new Golf in your 90s Corolla than another 90s Corolla. Also, a little talked about statistic is that most vehicle fatalities occur in single car accidents. Turns out, even a big ol' SUV is more forgiving than a telephone pole.

overcast 11y ago

Have you seen the smart car crashes? Those cages can survive head on 60mph crashes to a brick wall. The issue here is that the soft human inside will not. Larger cars incorporate crumple zones, which absorb a ton of the impact, while small cars with extremely strong frames do not. The passenger absorbs all the energy = death.

taneq 11y ago
A slight detour, but this always bugged me when Lois was falling to her death and Superman would catch her an inch off the ground. Well done, Superman, you just broke your girlfriend into three pieces with your arms.
- mjevans 11y ago
  That's just one of many areas where readers/viewers willingly suspend disbelief. Superman is supposed to be able to do that; that's one of the benefits of being beyond human is (for him). A literal reality distortion field is actually the best explanation for all of the exceptions to physics that happen around him; Lois passing in to that bubble while being saved is just one more thing on the list.

Someone1234 11y ago

This issue was covered in great depth when the Smart Car (e.g. Fortwo) got popular in Europe. Smart Cars have a lot of safety features, seat belts, airbags (4x), ABS, stability control, but the question was really about impact distribution. They put in a tridion protection cell[0] and moved the engine to the back to offer SOME crumple at the front. The Euro NCAP rated it 4/5, IIHS rated it "good" but it later failed the partial frontal collision test ("poor"). A Smart Car likely would do alright in most collisions. Although it somewhat benefits from the large crumple zones of every other vehicle has on the road. If two Smart Cars collided head on, the results might be worse than if a Smart Car collided with any other vehicle type. That all being said, just because Smart managed it, doesn't mean every small car is equally safe. Without the tridion cell and SOME crumple zone, it would be a much less safe vehicle. [0] http://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm http://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm

Shebanator 11y ago
The IIHS published a study[0] a little more than a year ago which found that the Smart Car wasn't actually that bad in terms of driver deaths per million registered vehicle years (2011 and equivalent earlier models, 2009-12). In its class (which only had 3 cars), the Mini was safer than the Smart but the Hyundai Accent was much much worse. But there were lots of bigger cars that were at the same rating or worse: * Buick Lacrosse 2WD * Cadillac DTS * Cadillac Escalade 4WD * Chevrolet Camaro * Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Ext 4WD * Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Crew 4WD * Chevrolet Suburban 1500 2WD * Ford Expedition 2WD * Ford F-150 Super 4WD 39 * Mercury Grand Marquis * Toyota Avalon * Toyota Tundra Crew Max 2WD [0] http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Driver_DeathRates_sr5001_emb.pdf http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Driver_DeathRates_sr5001_e...
Retric 11y ago
If your driving in a city and never break 45mph then overall risks change significantly. I drive a relatively small car for the US, and it's about the minimum I would consider safe at 70MPH. But, if you are spending 98% of your time in the city then simply renting a larger car becomes very viable. You can rent a mid size SUV at ~600$ per week and for a longer vacation you can upsize for minimal cost. Further, if your flying somewhere your car becomes meaningless anyway. PS: Remember a tiny electric could end up saving you 250+$ / month.

treehau5 11y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLfK35O91gE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLfK35O91gE a honda fit versus a honda accord of the same year. It's pretty clear which one would take less damage.

knz 11y ago

I understand your point that modern vehicles are relatively safe, but after seeing the result of a semi truck taking out a pickup truck on the Interstate yesterday I am seriously considering my choice to drive a compact vehicle. I assume larger vehicles have larger/longer crumple zones compared to compact vehicles and that higher vehicles have less chance of going under other vehicles? Of course it's zero sum if everyone drives larger vehicles but I can't force the local authorities to invest in better public transportation so I don't even need to drive to work.

AdrianB1 11y ago
If you want to minimize the effects of the impact with a semi then the only real option is another semi; a 1 ton car or a 3 ton car makes no difference being hit by a 40 ton truck, but the 1 ton car consumes much less fuel/energy.
- knz 11y ago
  It was hit from the side I think? The height of the pickup definitely made a difference because most of the cabin was sitting up on the median rather than squished into the barrier like the rest of the truck. Your point about the weight is a good one in most circumstances though!
peppaz 11y ago
Not to be a Debbie Downer - but about 5 years ago my two good friends were driving in a medium sized car in Brooklyn, when an Expedition crossed the double yellow going about 60 miles an hour and literally ran over the entire drivers side half of the car, flattening it. The driver sadly died while the passenger went unscathed. The next day, my Dad sold my sister's tiny, low-riding Saturn and got her a higher-riding CRV. I don't blame him, and now riding in low-sitting cars frightens me a tiny bit on the highways.
tomtang0514 11y ago
I agree your point. larger cars have great advantage in a crash due to crumple zones. And even though some compact cars has great crash test result, it doesn't mean they're safe enough to survive a highway crash since most if not all crash tests are done under 50mph. BTW, just a reminder that pickup trucks are body-on-frame structure which is design for more towing capacity. Unibody structure on most modern cars and SUV's are safer in general. If you check this list http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List you'll see pickup is worse than even compact cars in crash test.