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I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day. My home country Tunis

by Cyph0n 11y ago

I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day. My home country Tunisia for example has very strict currency controls in place, which means that it is impossible to purchase any goods from outside the country or even transfer money overseas. The government now provides rechargeable card with a 1000 TND (~500 USD) limit that can be used for online purchases. However, these are only issued to software developers and entrepreneurs to allow them to subscribe to online services, such as hosting, domain names, etc. Bitcoin provides a quick and easy way to circumvent that: convert your TND to BTC, and use that to purchase online goods or to transfer money outside the country. I'm actually thinking of setting up a MVP to test out this idea, but I'm struggling to come up with a solution that is completely transparent for the end-user. In other words, I don't want the user to have to understand Bitcoin or buy/sell it manually. I'd prefer instead for the system to use BTC under the hood. Another example I read about recently is Argentina. People are using Bitcoin there for daily transactions and for their savings due to high fluctuations in the local currency.

ifdefdebug 11y ago
> Bitcoin provides a quick and easy way to circumvent that Is that reality as of today, or is that a hope for the future?
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  No, but the potential is there, and it's already been done in other countries such as South Africa. The biggest hurdle I think is that Bitcoin is essentially unknown in Tunisia. I'm actually planning on building something but I don't have the entire system fleshed out.
  - ifdefdebug 11y ago
    I wish you good luck for your project sincerely. And for your country.
coldtea 11y ago
>I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day. Well, perhaps, but (a) these people are a very small amount compared to "first world" bitcoin champions (b) they would be better off pushing for actual policy change regarding their problems, instead of using a technological workaround who (depending on the whims of those in power) can land them in jail/money loss at any time...
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  Actually, I'd argue that the potential for Bitcoin lies more in third world countries than economically developed ones. First world countries usually don't suffer from unstable currencies or financial controls, which is what makes the utility of Bitcoin seem quite limited. Yes, your second point is true, but sometimes the country itself is struggling to stabilize its currency. Thankfully, that's not (yet) the case in Tunisia.
- madeofpalk 11y ago
  Also, the question was about why does HN hate Bitcoin so much. I would say the reasons stated cover that pretty well
- snitko 11y ago
  Actually, (b) is exactly the opposite. Instead of voting for certain economic policies and hoping "my guy wins" I can just use Bitcoin, which has the qualities I need, here and now: for instance, I can send money to anyone in the world without any of the KYC and AML bullshit and I don't need to wait and vote in just the right politician who promises(!) to easy the said regulations. I can certifiably tell you that I AM better off because I started using bitcoin. And it's not because of the exchange rate, but because of the freedom to do what I please with my money.
forgetsusername 11y ago
That's a wonderful use case for BTC. But the overwhelming majority of bitcoin investment, marketing and ownership isn't coming from Tunisia. It's coming from the West (and China), where most people have no problems spending or obtaining currency (maybe China does). Why are Westerners so eager to make money off of people's inability to move money around poor countries, and why is it supported?
- mbrock 11y ago
  One major reason why Bitcoin is used in the West is that it enables integrity and privacy when making online purchases, as opposed to bank-issued cards. I've used BTC in an emergency situation, to transfer money when I would otherwise have needed to wait for several days for an international bank transfer (and then would also have hit my bank's foreign ATM withdrawal limit). Your third paragraph is a veiled insult based on a notion that if applied consistently would deem the international banking system at least as immoral as Bitcoin.
  - ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
    Not hating on Bitcoin, but just to set the record straight - unless you're going through some extra hoops like mixers etc - the level of privacy you get with Bitcoin is less than what you get with a CC payment.
    - mbrock 11y ago
      If you buy BTC with cash and have it sent to a fresh wallet, that's quite some privacy—but yes, it's important to be aware of this stuff.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  It's actually virtually unknown in Tunisia as far as I can tell. I'm hoping that with an easy-to-use service and some marketing and advertising, it can become a bigger thing. As for why it's big in more developed countries, I guess it's because people are using it either as an investment device, or for purchasing goods anonymously.
Flimm 11y ago
How do you convert TND to BTC?
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  I take your TND, and then I give you BTC which I've purchased. I will also buy your BTC, but I'll likely rely on BTC purchased from foreign exchanges. You then use that BTC for whatever. The problem is that it becomes difficult to bring in casual customers due to the overhead introduced by Bitcoin, as Bitcoin is virtually unknown in Tunisia. A common issue in Tunisia especially is sending money to relatives in France. I want to give them the end-to-end experience in one place: you send me TND, I send your relative EUR. But everything I've thought of to accomplish that is just too complex. So right now my idea is just to give users BTC in an online wallet and let them do whatever they want with it. That means I'll need to effectively educate users about the basics of Bitcoin at the very least.
  - germanier 11y ago
    > I take your TND, and then I give you BTC which I've purchased. In that case you end up holding TND and need to purchase the bitcoin to give to your customers in another currency. You would have an easier result if you just directly exchanged TND to EUR without putting BTC in between. Likely that's about as legal as your solution. Just because at some point the value is hold in BTC doesn't mean currency controls cease to exist. I don't see the value Bitcoin provides here at all except for the fact that the government agency that should enforce currency controls is likely not competent enough yet to spot what you are doing. I'd place a bet that as soon as you start advertising your transparent TND-EUR conversion scheme that they'll shut you down as fast as if you wouldn't use BTC.
    - Cyph0n 11y ago
      I agree, it's quite risky and can easily be shut down by the authorities if they catch wind of it. I think the simplest way to avoid the risk is to setup a decentralized exchange that connects buyers to sellers. But that means it becomes much more difficult to take a cut, as people will just meet face-to-face.
Goronmon 11y ago
I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day. The question was why Bitcoin gets negative responses on places like HackerNews, and that question was answered.

by Cyph0n 11y ago

ifdefdebug 11y ago

> Bitcoin provides a quick and easy way to circumvent that Is that reality as of today, or is that a hope for the future?

Cyph0n 11y ago
No, but the potential is there, and it's already been done in other countries such as South Africa. The biggest hurdle I think is that Bitcoin is essentially unknown in Tunisia. I'm actually planning on building something but I don't have the entire system fleshed out.
- ifdefdebug 11y ago
  I wish you good luck for your project sincerely. And for your country.

coldtea 11y ago

>I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day. Well, perhaps, but (a) these people are a very small amount compared to "first world" bitcoin champions (b) they would be better off pushing for actual policy change regarding their problems, instead of using a technological workaround who (depending on the whims of those in power) can land them in jail/money loss at any time...

Cyph0n 11y ago
Actually, I'd argue that the potential for Bitcoin lies more in third world countries than economically developed ones. First world countries usually don't suffer from unstable currencies or financial controls, which is what makes the utility of Bitcoin seem quite limited. Yes, your second point is true, but sometimes the country itself is struggling to stabilize its currency. Thankfully, that's not (yet) the case in Tunisia.
madeofpalk 11y ago
Also, the question was about why does HN hate Bitcoin so much. I would say the reasons stated cover that pretty well
snitko 11y ago
Actually, (b) is exactly the opposite. Instead of voting for certain economic policies and hoping "my guy wins" I can just use Bitcoin, which has the qualities I need, here and now: for instance, I can send money to anyone in the world without any of the KYC and AML bullshit and I don't need to wait and vote in just the right politician who promises(!) to easy the said regulations. I can certifiably tell you that I AM better off because I started using bitcoin. And it's not because of the exchange rate, but because of the freedom to do what I please with my money.

forgetsusername 11y ago

That's a wonderful use case for BTC. But the overwhelming majority of bitcoin investment, marketing and ownership isn't coming from Tunisia. It's coming from the West (and China), where most people have no problems spending or obtaining currency (maybe China does). Why are Westerners so eager to make money off of people's inability to move money around poor countries, and why is it supported?

mbrock 11y ago
One major reason why Bitcoin is used in the West is that it enables integrity and privacy when making online purchases, as opposed to bank-issued cards. I've used BTC in an emergency situation, to transfer money when I would otherwise have needed to wait for several days for an international bank transfer (and then would also have hit my bank's foreign ATM withdrawal limit). Your third paragraph is a veiled insult based on a notion that if applied consistently would deem the international banking system at least as immoral as Bitcoin.
- ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
  Not hating on Bitcoin, but just to set the record straight - unless you're going through some extra hoops like mixers etc - the level of privacy you get with Bitcoin is less than what you get with a CC payment.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    If you buy BTC with cash and have it sent to a fresh wallet, that's quite some privacy—but yes, it's important to be aware of this stuff.
Cyph0n 11y ago
It's actually virtually unknown in Tunisia as far as I can tell. I'm hoping that with an easy-to-use service and some marketing and advertising, it can become a bigger thing. As for why it's big in more developed countries, I guess it's because people are using it either as an investment device, or for purchasing goods anonymously.

Flimm 11y ago

How do you convert TND to BTC?

Cyph0n 11y ago
I take your TND, and then I give you BTC which I've purchased. I will also buy your BTC, but I'll likely rely on BTC purchased from foreign exchanges. You then use that BTC for whatever. The problem is that it becomes difficult to bring in casual customers due to the overhead introduced by Bitcoin, as Bitcoin is virtually unknown in Tunisia. A common issue in Tunisia especially is sending money to relatives in France. I want to give them the end-to-end experience in one place: you send me TND, I send your relative EUR. But everything I've thought of to accomplish that is just too complex. So right now my idea is just to give users BTC in an online wallet and let them do whatever they want with it. That means I'll need to effectively educate users about the basics of Bitcoin at the very least.
- germanier 11y ago
  > I take your TND, and then I give you BTC which I've purchased. In that case you end up holding TND and need to purchase the bitcoin to give to your customers in another currency. You would have an easier result if you just directly exchanged TND to EUR without putting BTC in between. Likely that's about as legal as your solution. Just because at some point the value is hold in BTC doesn't mean currency controls cease to exist. I don't see the value Bitcoin provides here at all except for the fact that the government agency that should enforce currency controls is likely not competent enough yet to spot what you are doing. I'd place a bet that as soon as you start advertising your transparent TND-EUR conversion scheme that they'll shut you down as fast as if you wouldn't use BTC.
  - Cyph0n 11y ago
    I agree, it's quite risky and can easily be shut down by the authorities if they catch wind of it. I think the simplest way to avoid the risk is to setup a decentralized exchange that connects buyers to sellers. But that means it becomes much more difficult to take a cut, as people will just meet face-to-face.

Goronmon 11y ago

I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day. The question was why Bitcoin gets negative responses on places like HackerNews, and that question was answered.