3 ms·

Then I'm converting dollars to bitcoin via my electricity bill, with even more inefficiency.

by joosters 11y ago

lsadam0 11y ago
Then don't?
- ssharp 11y ago
  Exactly. Most people logically arrive at this conclusion when considering Bitcoin's merit as a currency. And that's before they even learn about the deep security issues, how hard it is to protect, how most Bitcoin services cannot be trusted, etc.
  - lsadam0 11y ago
    Deep security issues? Like what?
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Your money is exactly as secure as your private keys, and if they are stolen there is basically no prospect of getting it back. "Be your own bank" implies "be your own security division", which very few people are qualified to do.
      - lsadam0 11y ago
        If I leave cash on the street should I expect it to be safe? Is that a deep security issue? You implied there were deep fundamental flaws in BTC security, but your response shows nothing of the sort. Your 'deep flaw' is 'you have to protect your private keys'. You are describing a UX flaw, and I would agree with that. Objectively, you have exposed no 'deep security issues'.
        ssharp 11y ago
        I'm not sure what Bitcoin equivalent of "leaving cash on the street" you're inferring. It might be helpful if you elaborated on that. Bitcoin's non-physical nature (as compared to paper and coin currencies), I think, makes it more of a metaphor to a bank account or debit/credit card than a currency. This likely is a UX flaw, as you state, but it's a pretty big flaw. And credit cards, in most jurisdictions, have lots of protections against theft and fraud, as well as consumer protections like chargebacks and transactions are reversible, of course.
        ZenoArrow 11y ago
        > "I'm not sure what Bitcoin equivalent of "leaving cash on the street" you're inferring. It might be helpful if you elaborated on that." Bitcoins are a form of digital cash. You store Bitcoins in a wallet. If you lose your Bitcoin wallet you lose your bitcoins. In a similar sense, if you lose your wallet containing notes/coins, you lose your notes/coins. The security risk is the same.
        pauletienney 11y ago
        But the digital form of bitcoin change things. A good hacker might check for thousands of computer a day to find private keys but he can't walk along kilometers to find coins on the ground.
        ZenoArrow 11y ago
        Don't expose them to hackers then, keep your bitcoin wallet away from the Internet until you want to use it.
        ssharp 11y ago
        The security risk is not remotely the same because in order to do anything other that store your Bitcoins (e.g. spend, transfer), you have to expose your money online. My dollar bills are never out there on the internet, so my only risk of loss is physical loss or physical theft. Because of this, it's better to compare Bitcoin to other forms of "digital/virtual representations of currency", like debit cards and credit cards. And that's where Bitcoin's mass-adoption-type use-cases tend to fall apart.
ZenoArrow 11y ago
It's a bootstrapping measure. The idea eventually is that Bitcoin will be a useful currency without such heavy reliance on converting back and forth with traditional currencies.
apozem 11y ago
> While ASICs represent the fixed cost of Bitcoin mining, the expense of electricity is the marginal cost; indeed, Bitcoin is, for all intents and purposes, the digital representation of electricity. https://stratechery.com/2015/21-inc-and-the-future-of-bitcoin/ https://stratechery.com/2015/21-inc-and-the-future-of-bitcoi...
- stale2002 11y ago
  21 inc's ideas are a horrible scam. Why would you pay hundreds of dollars, to buy an inefficient miner that is 10% as efficient, when you could just buy hundreds of dollars of bitcoin.

Then I'm converting dollars to bitcoin via my electricity bill, with even more inefficiency.

lsadam0 11y ago

Then don't?

ssharp 11y ago
Exactly. Most people logically arrive at this conclusion when considering Bitcoin's merit as a currency. And that's before they even learn about the deep security issues, how hard it is to protect, how most Bitcoin services cannot be trusted, etc.
- lsadam0 11y ago
  Deep security issues? Like what?
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Your money is exactly as secure as your private keys, and if they are stolen there is basically no prospect of getting it back. "Be your own bank" implies "be your own security division", which very few people are qualified to do.
    - lsadam0 11y ago
      If I leave cash on the street should I expect it to be safe? Is that a deep security issue? You implied there were deep fundamental flaws in BTC security, but your response shows nothing of the sort. Your 'deep flaw' is 'you have to protect your private keys'. You are describing a UX flaw, and I would agree with that. Objectively, you have exposed no 'deep security issues'.
      - ssharp 11y ago
        I'm not sure what Bitcoin equivalent of "leaving cash on the street" you're inferring. It might be helpful if you elaborated on that. Bitcoin's non-physical nature (as compared to paper and coin currencies), I think, makes it more of a metaphor to a bank account or debit/credit card than a currency. This likely is a UX flaw, as you state, but it's a pretty big flaw. And credit cards, in most jurisdictions, have lots of protections against theft and fraud, as well as consumer protections like chargebacks and transactions are reversible, of course.
        ZenoArrow 11y ago
        > "I'm not sure what Bitcoin equivalent of "leaving cash on the street" you're inferring. It might be helpful if you elaborated on that." Bitcoins are a form of digital cash. You store Bitcoins in a wallet. If you lose your Bitcoin wallet you lose your bitcoins. In a similar sense, if you lose your wallet containing notes/coins, you lose your notes/coins. The security risk is the same.
        pauletienney 11y ago
        But the digital form of bitcoin change things. A good hacker might check for thousands of computer a day to find private keys but he can't walk along kilometers to find coins on the ground.
        ZenoArrow 11y ago
        Don't expose them to hackers then, keep your bitcoin wallet away from the Internet until you want to use it.
        ssharp 11y ago
        The security risk is not remotely the same because in order to do anything other that store your Bitcoins (e.g. spend, transfer), you have to expose your money online. My dollar bills are never out there on the internet, so my only risk of loss is physical loss or physical theft. Because of this, it's better to compare Bitcoin to other forms of "digital/virtual representations of currency", like debit cards and credit cards. And that's where Bitcoin's mass-adoption-type use-cases tend to fall apart.

ZenoArrow 11y ago

It's a bootstrapping measure. The idea eventually is that Bitcoin will be a useful currency without such heavy reliance on converting back and forth with traditional currencies.

apozem 11y ago

> While ASICs represent the fixed cost of Bitcoin mining, the expense of electricity is the marginal cost; indeed, Bitcoin is, for all intents and purposes, the digital representation of electricity. https://stratechery.com/2015/21-inc-and-the-future-of-bitcoin/ https://stratechery.com/2015/21-inc-and-the-future-of-bitcoi...

stale2002 11y ago
21 inc's ideas are a horrible scam. Why would you pay hundreds of dollars, to buy an inefficient miner that is 10% as efficient, when you could just buy hundreds of dollars of bitcoin.