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Apply HN: Kill Wages- Baseball Like Draft for Programmers

3 points by georgist 10y ago

If we removed wages and time as a proxy for value, everyone would make more money. This is not about social Justice.We aim to replace wages with mini X-prizes. Why would business prefer this? -Fire prevention Vs Fire Fighting-- code is done well once and for all. -Less operating capital-- free from pressure of monthly salary expense. -Programmers who speak up--- less waste from boss' ego features. - Deeper talent pool-- Have a whole 'guild' look into your problem vs only the persons you have hired/contracted. Benefit to programmers -Direct attribution to profit and growth. -Keep more of your paycheck Vs burning it on high rent. -Automate yourself out of a job and earn perpetual royalties. -Build apprentices- nurture and discover talent to take over from you. If tech and AI are about efficiency and driving costs down, then wage free prog(workers) will accelerate us to the new golden age.

bobwaycott 10y ago
Can you provide a walkthrough scenario or two that really explicates what this would look like in practice?
- georgist 10y ago
  A programmer is a member of a 'guild', where he/she draws a monthly income. A business needs some sales/biz dev automation done. The usual approach is to either hire someone or contract out the work, what I propose instead is that the business puts out specific outcomes that they want with a monetary value. For example; we will pay x amount per customer who stays for 3 years and we spend only time(t) per week servicing this customer. The benefit here is,instead of maybe just creating a DB and automating invoice collection(which are just features and piecemeal work) the programmer and business are forced to look at the totality of biz operations and explicitly state the cost and value of each action, step and procedure.This way a programmer can directly identify the value that they created from cost savings or higher billings. To me the 'Xprize' is about specific successes and outcomes.Even if these outcomes may take time to be seen, the programmer is earning an income from the guild and the business pays up for actual value when it is experienced.
  - ryporter 10y ago
    X Prizes (and their ilk) are great, but they have limited application. So much of what developers do is not directly measurable. For example, how do you measure the value of a scalable, modular, and extensible platform that will serve as a basis for growth over the next 5-10 years? By only rewarding what you can measure now, you risk running up a lot of technical debt in pursuit of those metrics.
    - georgist 10y ago
      " For example, how do you measure the value of a scalable, modular, and extensible platform that will serve as a basis for growth over the next 5-10 years?" your questions provides evidence of why I would prefer a wage free environment. As it currently stands now, a business will pay you an upfront fee to develop this platform, and earn most of the profit for the next ten years. I would rather earn a royalty from my platform in all these ten years( this sorts out the technical debt issue). Again this is not about worker Vs business, it is about what arrangement makes more money for everyone especially from the business perspective, and are incentives aligned.
      - ryporter 10y ago
        That's sort of how startups work, with equity grants to early employees. What you are proposing for larger businesses is simply impractical and so inconsistent with the current state of affairs that it really has no chance. To succeed, you're going to have to fundamentally shift our business culture. I see the ideal that you are striving for, but I can't fathom a path to get there from here.
onion2k 10y ago
If I understand correctly, the "baseball like draft" would turn every developer in to a contractor working to an annual contract, right? There seem to be some paradoxes in your idea though. You believe that a "baseball like draft" would mean everyone would make more money, but at the same time businesses would like it because it lowers costs. How does that work? You say that it would relieve the business pressure of ongoing monthly salaries, but at the same time all the programmers would receive perpetual royalties? Programmers who speak up would improve things somehow, but there'd be less waste from boss' ego features - what if the newly outspoken developers want to add ego features?
- georgist 10y ago
  Nice questions. if we had 'teams' of programmers and each team competes for new members, that is where 'the baseball like draft' analogy from. The programmers would be earning an income from their team so I am not about turning developers into contract workers. Just to clarify a team could be a co-op( or whatever structure). Making more money doesn't have to come from wage inflation. it can be derived from cost saving. Just like if you are a member of housing co-op, you still pay rent but the benefits you derive are incomparable if you just paid directly to a landlord. For a capitalistic business, the two options are either pay a fixed monthly wage and keep most of the profit or have no upfront wage costs and share your profits(royalties).It all comes down to preferences and what position each party wants/can negotiate. It is not perfection I seek but less options that I seek to avoid. About Egos that where the "xprize' esque comes in, business pay for explicit specific outcomes(think of it as a service level agreement).
  - Stanleyc23 10y ago
    Im still a bit confused. I've been on both the building side and the hiring side so I'd be in your target market. Can you contrast this model from hiring a typical dev shop or freelancer to fill a project spec for me? The business saves money, but pays royalties? The dev team gets a monthly wage but have to live together?
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3 points by georgist 10y ago

bobwaycott 10y ago

Can you provide a walkthrough scenario or two that really explicates what this would look like in practice?

georgist 10y ago
A programmer is a member of a 'guild', where he/she draws a monthly income. A business needs some sales/biz dev automation done. The usual approach is to either hire someone or contract out the work, what I propose instead is that the business puts out specific outcomes that they want with a monetary value. For example; we will pay x amount per customer who stays for 3 years and we spend only time(t) per week servicing this customer. The benefit here is,instead of maybe just creating a DB and automating invoice collection(which are just features and piecemeal work) the programmer and business are forced to look at the totality of biz operations and explicitly state the cost and value of each action, step and procedure.This way a programmer can directly identify the value that they created from cost savings or higher billings. To me the 'Xprize' is about specific successes and outcomes.Even if these outcomes may take time to be seen, the programmer is earning an income from the guild and the business pays up for actual value when it is experienced.
- ryporter 10y ago
  X Prizes (and their ilk) are great, but they have limited application. So much of what developers do is not directly measurable. For example, how do you measure the value of a scalable, modular, and extensible platform that will serve as a basis for growth over the next 5-10 years? By only rewarding what you can measure now, you risk running up a lot of technical debt in pursuit of those metrics.
  - georgist 10y ago
    " For example, how do you measure the value of a scalable, modular, and extensible platform that will serve as a basis for growth over the next 5-10 years?" your questions provides evidence of why I would prefer a wage free environment. As it currently stands now, a business will pay you an upfront fee to develop this platform, and earn most of the profit for the next ten years. I would rather earn a royalty from my platform in all these ten years( this sorts out the technical debt issue). Again this is not about worker Vs business, it is about what arrangement makes more money for everyone especially from the business perspective, and are incentives aligned.
    - ryporter 10y ago
      That's sort of how startups work, with equity grants to early employees. What you are proposing for larger businesses is simply impractical and so inconsistent with the current state of affairs that it really has no chance. To succeed, you're going to have to fundamentally shift our business culture. I see the ideal that you are striving for, but I can't fathom a path to get there from here.

onion2k 10y ago

If I understand correctly, the "baseball like draft" would turn every developer in to a contractor working to an annual contract, right? There seem to be some paradoxes in your idea though. You believe that a "baseball like draft" would mean everyone would make more money, but at the same time businesses would like it because it lowers costs. How does that work? You say that it would relieve the business pressure of ongoing monthly salaries, but at the same time all the programmers would receive perpetual royalties? Programmers who speak up would improve things somehow, but there'd be less waste from boss' ego features - what if the newly outspoken developers want to add ego features?

georgist 10y ago
Nice questions. if we had 'teams' of programmers and each team competes for new members, that is where 'the baseball like draft' analogy from. The programmers would be earning an income from their team so I am not about turning developers into contract workers. Just to clarify a team could be a co-op( or whatever structure). Making more money doesn't have to come from wage inflation. it can be derived from cost saving. Just like if you are a member of housing co-op, you still pay rent but the benefits you derive are incomparable if you just paid directly to a landlord. For a capitalistic business, the two options are either pay a fixed monthly wage and keep most of the profit or have no upfront wage costs and share your profits(royalties).It all comes down to preferences and what position each party wants/can negotiate. It is not perfection I seek but less options that I seek to avoid. About Egos that where the "xprize' esque comes in, business pay for explicit specific outcomes(think of it as a service level agreement).
- Stanleyc23 10y ago
  Im still a bit confused. I've been on both the building side and the hiring side so I'd be in your target market. Can you contrast this model from hiring a typical dev shop or freelancer to fill a project spec for me? The business saves money, but pays royalties? The dev team gets a monthly wage but have to live together?

deleted 10y ago

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deleted 10y ago

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