6 ms·

do you trust their historical accounts? I mean if they're willing to white wash their WWII atrocities, to save face, why wouldn't they similarly exaggerate posi

do you trust their historical accounts? I mean if they're willing to white wash their WWII atrocities, to save face, why wouldn't they similarly exaggerate positives in their history?

nihonde 11y ago
A curse on all those monks who are trying to bury their World War II atrocities and variations in annual climate! Those guys are the real problem here.
2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
Lying about WWII I could understand. Lying about a freezing lake? What do the monks gain by falsifying those records?
- duaneb 11y ago
  > What do the monks gain by falsifying those records? Depends on their motives. Depicting the world as chaotic or orderly can allow you to manipulate people's fears and hopes.
  - JustinM83 11y ago
    Exactly. Motives and intention matters. Read the freaking article, Duane. They were recording the data to forecast the harvest and rainfall for the coming year. It had nothing to do with whatever tinfoil hat motives you have flying around in your head.
    - duaneb 11y ago
      I was not seriously suggesting the monks were manipulating the numbers; however, the lack of obvious motive does not imply an absolute lack of motive. It seems a little silly to attach any certainty to historical records without understanding the context, which may or may not be possible.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    Notably absent are predictions of chaos/order from the monks and attendant pleas for money.
Mikeb85 11y ago
There's not the same incentives to whitewish something so inane, and out of their control...
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Lots of people in the US want to whitewash all sorts of atrocities. (for example: http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/07/30/3686060/conservatives-get-major-win-fight-ap-history-classes/ http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/07/30/3686060/conserva...)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hasenj 11y ago
How can you trust what Feynman says about science when he was on the team that created the atrocious bomb that destroyed two cities and obliterated tends of thousands of lives in an instant? /s
- golergka 11y ago
  This bomb also ended the war that was costing more civilian lives in conventional war methods (like fire bombing of Tokyo). If anything, in the context of WWII, _first_ bomb ended up actually saving lives.
  - hasenj 11y ago
    I call bullshit. The bomb enabled communism to take over most of East Asia. The bomb is the reason why half the world lived under communist dictatorships. The war could have ended via an armistice, if only America was willing to negotiate one, but no, they wanted to go all in. After the war, Korea was worse off for decades. We think of "South Korea" as an advanced nation like Japan, but actually South Korea was ruled by a brutal military dictatorship not different from third world countries (there was a story about that just a few days ago).
    - golergka 11y ago
      > The bomb enabled communism to take over most of East Asia. > The bomb is the reason why half the world lived under communist dictatorships. Right, it was the bomb and not the whole anti-war 60s movement, which led to US disengagement from SE Asia at large.
      - hasenj 11y ago
        Sixties? That's long after the fact.
Bluestrike2 11y ago
Well, to be fair, the idea behind whitewashing is that there's some benefit to covering up the horrors of the past. It doesn't work out that way, especially when the truth eventually comes out. But what would be the benefit here? It's ice measurement data from seven centuries ago, long before climate skeptics started complaining that scientists were "fudging data for grant money" and other nonsense accusations. The monks would have had zero reason to fudge data. In any case, you didn't really see the rise of Japanese militarism until after the Meiji Restoration in 1868. The atrocities that took place before and during WWII can't really be connected to a remote monastery and its priests who started recording this data seven centuries beforehand.

do you trust their historical accounts? I mean if they're willing to white wash their WWII atrocities, to save face, why wouldn't they similarly exaggerate positives in their history?

nihonde 11y ago

A curse on all those monks who are trying to bury their World War II atrocities and variations in annual climate! Those guys are the real problem here.

2muchcoffeeman 11y ago

Lying about WWII I could understand. Lying about a freezing lake? What do the monks gain by falsifying those records?

duaneb 11y ago
> What do the monks gain by falsifying those records? Depends on their motives. Depicting the world as chaotic or orderly can allow you to manipulate people's fears and hopes.
- JustinM83 11y ago
  Exactly. Motives and intention matters. Read the freaking article, Duane. They were recording the data to forecast the harvest and rainfall for the coming year. It had nothing to do with whatever tinfoil hat motives you have flying around in your head.
  - duaneb 11y ago
    I was not seriously suggesting the monks were manipulating the numbers; however, the lack of obvious motive does not imply an absolute lack of motive. It seems a little silly to attach any certainty to historical records without understanding the context, which may or may not be possible.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  Notably absent are predictions of chaos/order from the monks and attendant pleas for money.

Mikeb85 11y ago

There's not the same incentives to whitewish something so inane, and out of their control...

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

Lots of people in the US want to whitewash all sorts of atrocities. (for example: http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/07/30/3686060/conservatives-get-major-win-fight-ap-history-classes/ http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/07/30/3686060/conserva...)

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

hasenj 11y ago

How can you trust what Feynman says about science when he was on the team that created the atrocious bomb that destroyed two cities and obliterated tends of thousands of lives in an instant? /s

golergka 11y ago
This bomb also ended the war that was costing more civilian lives in conventional war methods (like fire bombing of Tokyo). If anything, in the context of WWII, _first_ bomb ended up actually saving lives.
- hasenj 11y ago
  I call bullshit. The bomb enabled communism to take over most of East Asia. The bomb is the reason why half the world lived under communist dictatorships. The war could have ended via an armistice, if only America was willing to negotiate one, but no, they wanted to go all in. After the war, Korea was worse off for decades. We think of "South Korea" as an advanced nation like Japan, but actually South Korea was ruled by a brutal military dictatorship not different from third world countries (there was a story about that just a few days ago).
  - golergka 11y ago
    > The bomb enabled communism to take over most of East Asia. > The bomb is the reason why half the world lived under communist dictatorships. Right, it was the bomb and not the whole anti-war 60s movement, which led to US disengagement from SE Asia at large.
    - hasenj 11y ago
      Sixties? That's long after the fact.

Bluestrike2 11y ago

Well, to be fair, the idea behind whitewashing is that there's some benefit to covering up the horrors of the past. It doesn't work out that way, especially when the truth eventually comes out. But what would be the benefit here? It's ice measurement data from seven centuries ago, long before climate skeptics started complaining that scientists were "fudging data for grant money" and other nonsense accusations. The monks would have had zero reason to fudge data. In any case, you didn't really see the rise of Japanese militarism until after the Meiji Restoration in 1868. The atrocities that took place before and during WWII can't really be connected to a remote monastery and its priests who started recording this data seven centuries beforehand.