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> the total lifetime cost of the program is now estimated at 1.3 trillion dollars But the would-be US presidential candidate suggesting free higher education i

by rodgerd 11y ago

> the total lifetime cost of the program is now estimated at 1.3 trillion dollars But the would-be US presidential candidate suggesting free higher education is the fiscally irrespomsible fantasist, apparently.

kristopolous 11y ago
I've seen numbers floating at 70 billion/year for that. So that would be 18.5 years. I've seen estimations of about 1.7 trillion for the wars since 9/11. That'd be another 24 years. Peter Dale Scott wrote a book about something he calls "The Deep State" which at least, to me helps explain how seemingly regardless of who gets elected, such unpopular expensive programs continue without elected officials people having any discussion of legislation to stop it.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 11y ago
  Have you ever noticed that whenever government gives a bunch of money to higher education to operate, the cost to operate those universities goes up to match whatever extra was given?
  - mikeyouse 11y ago
    The government has been dramatically scaling back direct funding of higher education which has to then be made up with higher tuition. Often times, yes, the tuition is then paid for with government-backed loans but the cost-per-student in most areas hasn't budged in 30 years.
  - Loughla 11y ago
    That's just not true. Higher education costs have held steady for about 30 years. What has increased is the share of that cost that is being fronted by the student, instead of the government. You want to be mad, be mad. But at least point it in the right direction. For example - at the 'state funded' institution I was previously employed by, only 11% of our annual funding came from the state. Compare that to the 1970's, when around 60% came from the same source. The cost of tuition didn't increase (outside of annual inflation adjustments) overall. The cost to the student increased because the state cut back so hard on their payments. Meanwhile, students demand the same, or better services every year. You can have cheap, you can have good, but you can't have both. The fact that people going to college in the 1970's were able to pay for college on part-time summer jobs wasn't because it was miraculously cheap. It was heavily subsidized. These aren't secrets.
  - jahewson 11y ago
    Citation needed.
  - gnoway 11y ago
    Have you ever noticed that wherever you point a firehose, the target tends to get soaked as soon as you turn the water on?
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    No but I have noticed that when the state reduces its funding contribution, that tuition rises to compensate.
- reality_hacker 11y ago
  So, what is your proposal exactly? Cut this program, and make army weaker, while others(Russia, China, isis, whatever) gain military weight?
  - kristopolous 11y ago
    I'd like to have meaningful public discussion befitting of the size of these financial commitments. For instance, there's occasional debate about defunding public broadcasting, which costs 0.013% of F35 + wars. Planned Parenthood is 0.018% of this. Even the often hotly contested NASA is 0.62% of this. A few years ago, congress was in heated budget debates - trying to knock off PBS to save a buck - but a plane that cost 48,743 times that was never brought up for discussion. Even if you span these budgets over the 20 years of the F35 program, something like planned parenthood cost 0.4% as much. If we can find the time to talk about X as a huge waste of tax payer dollars and have legislation to defund it, surely we can find time to talk about something that costs 25,000% more than X. However, other than an occasional news article and grumble of discontent, nothing actually happens. It moves forward unabated. That's a problem.
    - reality_hacker 11y ago
      These types of debates are going for few decades already. 1,3trln is joint air-force budget for next 80 years (since F-35 is intended to cover 90% of all air-force/navy/marines air tasks), includes not only 2500 highly sophisticated vehicles them-self, but maintenance, and probably training and weapons, and covers 50% of national security problems in modern world. I think 1.3trln is moderate price for that.
      - kristopolous 11y ago
        That's cool. I guess warfare and killing people just ain't my thing.
        reality_hacker 11y ago
        Maybe thinking about your kids future is your thing.

by rodgerd 11y ago

kristopolous 11y ago

I've seen numbers floating at 70 billion/year for that. So that would be 18.5 years. I've seen estimations of about 1.7 trillion for the wars since 9/11. That'd be another 24 years. Peter Dale Scott wrote a book about something he calls "The Deep State" which at least, to me helps explain how seemingly regardless of who gets elected, such unpopular expensive programs continue without elected officials people having any discussion of legislation to stop it.

NoMoreNicksLeft 11y ago
Have you ever noticed that whenever government gives a bunch of money to higher education to operate, the cost to operate those universities goes up to match whatever extra was given?
- mikeyouse 11y ago
  The government has been dramatically scaling back direct funding of higher education which has to then be made up with higher tuition. Often times, yes, the tuition is then paid for with government-backed loans but the cost-per-student in most areas hasn't budged in 30 years.
- Loughla 11y ago
  That's just not true. Higher education costs have held steady for about 30 years. What has increased is the share of that cost that is being fronted by the student, instead of the government. You want to be mad, be mad. But at least point it in the right direction. For example - at the 'state funded' institution I was previously employed by, only 11% of our annual funding came from the state. Compare that to the 1970's, when around 60% came from the same source. The cost of tuition didn't increase (outside of annual inflation adjustments) overall. The cost to the student increased because the state cut back so hard on their payments. Meanwhile, students demand the same, or better services every year. You can have cheap, you can have good, but you can't have both. The fact that people going to college in the 1970's were able to pay for college on part-time summer jobs wasn't because it was miraculously cheap. It was heavily subsidized. These aren't secrets.
- jahewson 11y ago
  Citation needed.
- gnoway 11y ago
  Have you ever noticed that wherever you point a firehose, the target tends to get soaked as soon as you turn the water on?
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  No but I have noticed that when the state reduces its funding contribution, that tuition rises to compensate.
reality_hacker 11y ago
So, what is your proposal exactly? Cut this program, and make army weaker, while others(Russia, China, isis, whatever) gain military weight?
- kristopolous 11y ago
  I'd like to have meaningful public discussion befitting of the size of these financial commitments. For instance, there's occasional debate about defunding public broadcasting, which costs 0.013% of F35 + wars. Planned Parenthood is 0.018% of this. Even the often hotly contested NASA is 0.62% of this. A few years ago, congress was in heated budget debates - trying to knock off PBS to save a buck - but a plane that cost 48,743 times that was never brought up for discussion. Even if you span these budgets over the 20 years of the F35 program, something like planned parenthood cost 0.4% as much. If we can find the time to talk about X as a huge waste of tax payer dollars and have legislation to defund it, surely we can find time to talk about something that costs 25,000% more than X. However, other than an occasional news article and grumble of discontent, nothing actually happens. It moves forward unabated. That's a problem.
  - reality_hacker 11y ago
    These types of debates are going for few decades already. 1,3trln is joint air-force budget for next 80 years (since F-35 is intended to cover 90% of all air-force/navy/marines air tasks), includes not only 2500 highly sophisticated vehicles them-self, but maintenance, and probably training and weapons, and covers 50% of national security problems in modern world. I think 1.3trln is moderate price for that.
    - kristopolous 11y ago
      That's cool. I guess warfare and killing people just ain't my thing.
      - reality_hacker 11y ago
        Maybe thinking about your kids future is your thing.