8 ms·

This reminds me a lot of the tax code. One special case is painless. A whole pile means that millions of worker hours are wasted trying to fill out the forms co

This reminds me a lot of the tax code. One special case is painless. A whole pile means that millions of worker hours are wasted trying to fill out the forms correctly, and millions of dollars paid to CPAs to do what any citizen ought to be able to do in minutes. Both with taxes and regulations, it's death by a thousand cuts. If you try to fix it, you'll hear "but soy farmers need tax breaks" and "but workers need to have good office chairs". Individually, each claim sounds reasonable. Collectively, it's a mess. I sometimes fantasize of ways to limit this. Eg, have all laws sunset, so we have to prioritize renewing the most important. Or set absolute size limits on areas of regulation - like a one-page tax code (with specified font and margins). But likely none of it would work, humans being so good at exploiting systems for personal gain.

kspaans 10y ago
The UK is for-real working on simplifying their tax code: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-simplification https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-si... At the moment they are trying to harmonize income tax and National Insurance (which is not entirely unlike income tax (especially because it all goes into the same pot), but it has exemptions for various groups which income tax does not (e.g. seniors collecting their pensions). So any change will invariably throw some group under the bus, which is why it's politically hard to do.)
nkurz 10y ago
I appreciated this description of the difference between American and Swedish tax preparation by some who files both: Our US federal and state forms tax forms were more than 30 pages long last year, downloaded completely blank. During the two weeks we'll spend in Wisconsin this summer, our main job will be to get our taxes done. I'll wade through stacks of bank and credit card records line by line, documenting all professional income beyond our wages and scanning for every possible business or charitable deduction. Once this is done, we — like the majority of US taxpayers — will hire a tax professional who charges us $500 to review and co-sign our work. Tax-preparation services cost American taxpayers more than $32 billion per year. My wife, Betty, and I each have a PhD, but that's not enough to understand IRS instructions. Finally, with a great sigh of relief, our marriage still intact, we'll sign the forms and send them to the IRS. Of course, despite our great efforts, we don't know whether the IRS is going to be happy or not. We might get audited and have to dig up all this stuff again, because the government has three years to check and revise our returns. In Sweden, the four-page tax form comes in the mail already filled out. On a Saturday morning, Betty and I take our coffee to the couch and review the forms. Seeing they look reasonable, as they always do, we "sign" with a text from our phones. In 15 minutes we are done. We don't have to hire a tax consultant, and we avoid fights about whether a print cartridge bought at the drugstore is a business expense or not. http://www.vox.com/2016/4/8/11380356/swedish-taxes-love http://www.vox.com/2016/4/8/11380356/swedish-taxes-love
- SilasX 10y ago
  In fairness, that's a lot of information that Americans would consider private, going out through the mail in clearly marked envelopes. They can only be so casual about it in Sweden because they also have the social practice of being less secretive about how much they make. With that said, if we could nail down the authentication process, we could do here (and should). It wouldn't improve everyone's situation -- e.g. if you have a lot of income from hard-to-track sources -- but for most people it would be a godsend.
  - tormeh 10y ago
    Alternatively, you could do it over the internet. Not totally unprecedented that ;) As a Norwegian, I think sending a text is a little too much work. Here, silence is a confirmation in itself. That said, if you have foreign bank accounts or own foreign shares then you still have to do your taxes here too. I think they should get an information sharing agreement with other governments in place to get rid of that. Should be doable within the EU at least.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Don't you have to submit them by mail anyway? By the way, in Portugal we download a cross-platform Java app that fetches the data over HTTPS and lets you fix it (if needed) and submit. Of course, that has its own problems, so paper submissions are still allowed.
    - cortesoft 10y ago
      Most people file online these days, and no forms are sent. However, many people still send in their forms by mail.
  - cortesoft 10y ago
    W-2s are usually sent in the mail currently, which have all the stuff you would want to keep private. I have never heard anyone complain that W-2s in the mail are dangerous. In fact, what extra information would be on this pre-filled form that isn't already being sent via mail? Bank statements, retirement statements, pretty much all financial info is sent in the mail every day.
tanker 10y ago
I think a sunset on all laws would be helpful. It would probably require a change to other parliamentary procedures or the representatives wouldn't have enough time to vote on everything. I expect the US would struggle with this more than most countries. The alternative is less government due to political gridlock. Perhaps that would result in more of these programs being managed at the state or local level. Initially, every time a soy farmer support bill died due to a sunset time it could be a media issue. Some big bills will continue to die or be renewed amid a media frenzy; however, our capacity for sensation is limited. Many bills would die quietly. A delightful side effect could be the generation of enough actual news to keep the media busy reporting on useful topics. A maximum word length or similar requirement sounds good; however, it might not be practical. If you prevented disparate pieces of legislation from being voted on as a single law, a limit on length might work and promote transparency.
- ap22213 10y ago
  As a citizen of a democratic country, I love the idea of mandatory sunsets. I hate how easy it is for legislators to pass laws but how very difficult it is to repeal them. But, beyond that, I'd like to see the law be self-repairing. There's a legal concept that goes back to the Romans that ignorance isn't a valid defense. Maybe it worked well back then, but not when the legal code expands as it does in modern democratic countries. The law should be a manageable size that is largely understood and agreed to by everyone. In that vein, I've always wanted a built in system to 'garbage collect' laws that were dated or misunderstood. In a simple implementation, a government department would poll the citizen body for understanding or agreement with a law. If the polling doesn't reach a threshold, then the law is purged.
  - acbabis 10y ago
    You mean in addition to jury duty, citizens would have legislation duty? Seems legit.
- gozur88 10y ago
  Sunsets don't have any effect in practice. All sorts of US laws have sunset provisions, and unless they've become somehow politically contentious they get renewed without debate every year.
pessimizer 10y ago
Taxes could be automatically calculated. The reason they aren't is because of lobbying by tax preparation companies, not the complexity of the tax code.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  Only in the simplest of cases. Yes, an employee with only W-2 income, some stock trades, some interest/dividends. But the IRS has no data feed to tell them what I did for rental property (schedule E), my side business (schedule C), my charitable deductions (schedule A), nor other schedule A items, nor gift tax return information, nor many other cases that arise from tax law complexity. You could possibly calculate my "most-pessimal" tax liability automatically.
SilasX 10y ago
But those special exemptions aren't the core driver of tax code complexity. Rather, it's the intersection of: a) high (enough) rates, and b) taxation of business income (where you must allow deduction of legit business expenses like inventory) This spawns sort of an arms race where businesses try to classify consumption as a "business expense" so they can deduct it, and the tax authority has to respond with ever-longer lists of "no you can't do that". One naive scheme might be for the boss to go around and say "hey, what would you spend your next $50 on" and then buy it, classify it as a business expense, and silently give it to them. Then the worker doesn't show up as having that income, but the company has the expense to deduct. Now think about the regulatory apparatus necessary to prevent that, and any clever variant, from happening. (It's also why fringe benefits were so lavish for high earners in the high-tax 50s.) The higher the rate, the more activity is diverted into this (socially wasteful) activity. Do you want high-IQ people designing self-driving cars or outsmarting the tax code?
- Retric 10y ago
  Highly successful company's don't need to spend a lot of time on the tax code. The ROI of focusing on the tax code is finite and you really quickly hit diminishing returns. Accept you might possibly be paying a little more and move on.
  - SilasX 10y ago
    Successful companies don't reduce their effective tax rate below the official 35% number?
  - aianus 10y ago
    > The ROI of focusing on the tax code is finite and you really quickly hit diminishing returns. Accept you might possibly be paying a little more and move on. Tell that to the oodles of lawyers and accountants managing Irish subsidiaries at Apple and Google. There is literally nothing with a better ROI than pushing papers around to save tens of billions.
    - Retric 10y ago
chongli 10y ago
Same goes for communication: one reply is a conversation, a million replies is harassment!
d0mine 10y ago
Look at copyright laws. US corporations find a way to prolong useful for them laws to the detriment of the society.

kspaans 10y ago

The UK is for-real working on simplifying their tax code: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-simplification https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-si... At the moment they are trying to harmonize income tax and National Insurance (which is not entirely unlike income tax (especially because it all goes into the same pot), but it has exemptions for various groups which income tax does not (e.g. seniors collecting their pensions). So any change will invariably throw some group under the bus, which is why it's politically hard to do.)

nkurz 10y ago

I appreciated this description of the difference between American and Swedish tax preparation by some who files both: Our US federal and state forms tax forms were more than 30 pages long last year, downloaded completely blank. During the two weeks we'll spend in Wisconsin this summer, our main job will be to get our taxes done. I'll wade through stacks of bank and credit card records line by line, documenting all professional income beyond our wages and scanning for every possible business or charitable deduction. Once this is done, we — like the majority of US taxpayers — will hire a tax professional who charges us $500 to review and co-sign our work. Tax-preparation services cost American taxpayers more than $32 billion per year. My wife, Betty, and I each have a PhD, but that's not enough to understand IRS instructions. Finally, with a great sigh of relief, our marriage still intact, we'll sign the forms and send them to the IRS. Of course, despite our great efforts, we don't know whether the IRS is going to be happy or not. We might get audited and have to dig up all this stuff again, because the government has three years to check and revise our returns. In Sweden, the four-page tax form comes in the mail already filled out. On a Saturday morning, Betty and I take our coffee to the couch and review the forms. Seeing they look reasonable, as they always do, we "sign" with a text from our phones. In 15 minutes we are done. We don't have to hire a tax consultant, and we avoid fights about whether a print cartridge bought at the drugstore is a business expense or not. http://www.vox.com/2016/4/8/11380356/swedish-taxes-love http://www.vox.com/2016/4/8/11380356/swedish-taxes-love

SilasX 10y ago
In fairness, that's a lot of information that Americans would consider private, going out through the mail in clearly marked envelopes. They can only be so casual about it in Sweden because they also have the social practice of being less secretive about how much they make. With that said, if we could nail down the authentication process, we could do here (and should). It wouldn't improve everyone's situation -- e.g. if you have a lot of income from hard-to-track sources -- but for most people it would be a godsend.
- tormeh 10y ago
  Alternatively, you could do it over the internet. Not totally unprecedented that ;) As a Norwegian, I think sending a text is a little too much work. Here, silence is a confirmation in itself. That said, if you have foreign bank accounts or own foreign shares then you still have to do your taxes here too. I think they should get an information sharing agreement with other governments in place to get rid of that. Should be doable within the EU at least.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Don't you have to submit them by mail anyway? By the way, in Portugal we download a cross-platform Java app that fetches the data over HTTPS and lets you fix it (if needed) and submit. Of course, that has its own problems, so paper submissions are still allowed.
  - cortesoft 10y ago
    Most people file online these days, and no forms are sent. However, many people still send in their forms by mail.
- cortesoft 10y ago
  W-2s are usually sent in the mail currently, which have all the stuff you would want to keep private. I have never heard anyone complain that W-2s in the mail are dangerous. In fact, what extra information would be on this pre-filled form that isn't already being sent via mail? Bank statements, retirement statements, pretty much all financial info is sent in the mail every day.

tanker 10y ago

I think a sunset on all laws would be helpful. It would probably require a change to other parliamentary procedures or the representatives wouldn't have enough time to vote on everything. I expect the US would struggle with this more than most countries. The alternative is less government due to political gridlock. Perhaps that would result in more of these programs being managed at the state or local level. Initially, every time a soy farmer support bill died due to a sunset time it could be a media issue. Some big bills will continue to die or be renewed amid a media frenzy; however, our capacity for sensation is limited. Many bills would die quietly. A delightful side effect could be the generation of enough actual news to keep the media busy reporting on useful topics. A maximum word length or similar requirement sounds good; however, it might not be practical. If you prevented disparate pieces of legislation from being voted on as a single law, a limit on length might work and promote transparency.

ap22213 10y ago
As a citizen of a democratic country, I love the idea of mandatory sunsets. I hate how easy it is for legislators to pass laws but how very difficult it is to repeal them. But, beyond that, I'd like to see the law be self-repairing. There's a legal concept that goes back to the Romans that ignorance isn't a valid defense. Maybe it worked well back then, but not when the legal code expands as it does in modern democratic countries. The law should be a manageable size that is largely understood and agreed to by everyone. In that vein, I've always wanted a built in system to 'garbage collect' laws that were dated or misunderstood. In a simple implementation, a government department would poll the citizen body for understanding or agreement with a law. If the polling doesn't reach a threshold, then the law is purged.
- acbabis 10y ago
  You mean in addition to jury duty, citizens would have legislation duty? Seems legit.
gozur88 10y ago
Sunsets don't have any effect in practice. All sorts of US laws have sunset provisions, and unless they've become somehow politically contentious they get renewed without debate every year.

pessimizer 10y ago

Taxes could be automatically calculated. The reason they aren't is because of lobbying by tax preparation companies, not the complexity of the tax code.

sokoloff 10y ago
Only in the simplest of cases. Yes, an employee with only W-2 income, some stock trades, some interest/dividends. But the IRS has no data feed to tell them what I did for rental property (schedule E), my side business (schedule C), my charitable deductions (schedule A), nor other schedule A items, nor gift tax return information, nor many other cases that arise from tax law complexity. You could possibly calculate my "most-pessimal" tax liability automatically.

SilasX 10y ago

But those special exemptions aren't the core driver of tax code complexity. Rather, it's the intersection of: a) high (enough) rates, and b) taxation of business income (where you must allow deduction of legit business expenses like inventory) This spawns sort of an arms race where businesses try to classify consumption as a "business expense" so they can deduct it, and the tax authority has to respond with ever-longer lists of "no you can't do that". One naive scheme might be for the boss to go around and say "hey, what would you spend your next $50 on" and then buy it, classify it as a business expense, and silently give it to them. Then the worker doesn't show up as having that income, but the company has the expense to deduct. Now think about the regulatory apparatus necessary to prevent that, and any clever variant, from happening. (It's also why fringe benefits were so lavish for high earners in the high-tax 50s.) The higher the rate, the more activity is diverted into this (socially wasteful) activity. Do you want high-IQ people designing self-driving cars or outsmarting the tax code?

Retric 10y ago
Highly successful company's don't need to spend a lot of time on the tax code. The ROI of focusing on the tax code is finite and you really quickly hit diminishing returns. Accept you might possibly be paying a little more and move on.
- SilasX 10y ago
  Successful companies don't reduce their effective tax rate below the official 35% number?
- aianus 10y ago
  > The ROI of focusing on the tax code is finite and you really quickly hit diminishing returns. Accept you might possibly be paying a little more and move on. Tell that to the oodles of lawyers and accountants managing Irish subsidiaries at Apple and Google. There is literally nothing with a better ROI than pushing papers around to save tens of billions.
  - Retric 10y ago

chongli 10y ago

Same goes for communication: one reply is a conversation, a million replies is harassment!

d0mine 10y ago

Look at copyright laws. US corporations find a way to prolong useful for them laws to the detriment of the society.