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Is your wife re-certified every year or two? Does she have to have a certain number of continuing education hours every year? I don't doubt for a minute that t

by csixty4 10y ago

Is your wife re-certified every year or two? Does she have to have a certain number of continuing education hours every year? I don't doubt for a minute that there's some kind of alpha geek thing going on with a lot of interviews. But it's also a reflection of the fact we don't have a widely-accepted accreditation body that can vouch for people.

Bartweiss 10y ago
I think this is at the core of the problem. As the infamous CodingHorror post points out, an awful lot of programmers can't actually program. That means interviews have to check for more than culture fit. It also drives extremely high selectivity, and when you know you'll be rejecting 90% of your applicants it becomes that much harder to give everyone a smooth and welcoming interview. Of course, none of this deals with the problem that (as Sahat found) many software interviews don't actually check for relevant skills. That's just stupid.
markbnj 10y ago
Yes as I mentioned in a reply above these are very good points, but there is a significant difference of context, don't you think? Certification and licensing of medical personnel came about over many years because of the very great harm that could be done by those pretending to know what they were doing. What is at risk for most companies in hiring a programmer is more along the lines of a few hours of interview time, and the few weeks of ramp-up that might have been wasted. If an unqualified person can get in, go undetected, and do real harm to the company and its business then that is a failure of a different sort, imo.
TYPE_FASTER 10y ago
> Is your wife re-certified every year or two? License requirements are by state, but yes, there is a licensing process. > Does she have to have a certain number of continuing education hours every year? It depends on the state, but yes, some states require a minimum number of hours of education to renew a license.
vonmoltke 10y ago
> Is your wife re-certified every year or two? Does she have to have a certain number of continuing education hours every year? Every time credentials come up with respect to this industry there are a whole bunch of people who complain that credentials are meaningless because people can just cheat or coast their way through. They go so far as to include CS degrees themselves in that category. What makes you think the education and credentials for nurses are so much better than for software engineers that nurses can be hired based on credentials and software engineers cannot?
- markbnj 10y ago
  Two possible answers come to mind: the first is that in order to be licensed nurses, like doctors and lawyers, have to pass an intensive test known as "boards." The second is that licensing, certification, and recertification are functions of state government, not voluntary industry guidelines.
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    > the first is that in order to be licensed nurses, like doctors and lawyers, have to pass an intensive test known as "boards." Board certification is not a legal requirement in any jurisdiction I am aware of. The licensure tests and board certifications are separate, and the former is generally taken very close to when the doctor, lawyer, or nurse graduates from their program and completes their internship period. > The second is that licensing, certification, and recertification are functions of state government, not voluntary industry guidelines. Yes and no. State governments decide what they will recognize, but industry provides the training. Some of the shit that counts as "continuing education" for the medical profession is little better than what you get at DeVry for programmers. That said, at least these professions have strong professional associations that birddog state licensing boards to keep the bullshit out. My original comment, in fact, was motivated by IEEE and ACM's attempts to do the same for software engineers and the way the industry seems to be laughing at their efforts.
dikdik 10y ago
My sister is a nurse (traveling nurse actually) and she does carry credentials. Moving to a new state requires you to get licensed all over again. However, from everything I can glean from the process, as a nurse you only have to take a certified test once. Then you just submit some paper work to have it renewed every few years, you do not need to retake boards every so often like physicians. When getting licensed in a new state (ie move from Montana to California), you just need to submit basic paperwork, background check/get finger printed and then you are licensed for the new state (no need to retake an exam). All these comments seem to indicate nurses have insanely high selective pressures to weed out people who suck. It's really, really not the case. The stories I hear about certain nurses who completely lack common sense are astounding. When my sister gets a new position (even when she started travel nursing after only 1 year of experience), she has a phone interview with a company hired by the hospital to find travel nurses. They may or may not contact her previous employers/references and then she finds out within a day or two if she has the job. It typically takes her 1 week to get a new assignment, 3 weeks tops if she is being exceptionally picky and trying to work in a specific area/hospital. That's all there is to it. She's gone through this process about 6 times in the past two years (I've even seen her do a phone interview while at a wine tasting! -- and she was offered the position) and she rarely stresses about these interviews as they are not technical.

by csixty4 10y ago

Bartweiss 10y ago

I think this is at the core of the problem. As the infamous CodingHorror post points out, an awful lot of programmers can't actually program. That means interviews have to check for more than culture fit. It also drives extremely high selectivity, and when you know you'll be rejecting 90% of your applicants it becomes that much harder to give everyone a smooth and welcoming interview. Of course, none of this deals with the problem that (as Sahat found) many software interviews don't actually check for relevant skills. That's just stupid.

markbnj 10y ago

Yes as I mentioned in a reply above these are very good points, but there is a significant difference of context, don't you think? Certification and licensing of medical personnel came about over many years because of the very great harm that could be done by those pretending to know what they were doing. What is at risk for most companies in hiring a programmer is more along the lines of a few hours of interview time, and the few weeks of ramp-up that might have been wasted. If an unqualified person can get in, go undetected, and do real harm to the company and its business then that is a failure of a different sort, imo.

TYPE_FASTER 10y ago

> Is your wife re-certified every year or two? License requirements are by state, but yes, there is a licensing process. > Does she have to have a certain number of continuing education hours every year? It depends on the state, but yes, some states require a minimum number of hours of education to renew a license.

vonmoltke 10y ago

> Is your wife re-certified every year or two? Does she have to have a certain number of continuing education hours every year? Every time credentials come up with respect to this industry there are a whole bunch of people who complain that credentials are meaningless because people can just cheat or coast their way through. They go so far as to include CS degrees themselves in that category. What makes you think the education and credentials for nurses are so much better than for software engineers that nurses can be hired based on credentials and software engineers cannot?

markbnj 10y ago
Two possible answers come to mind: the first is that in order to be licensed nurses, like doctors and lawyers, have to pass an intensive test known as "boards." The second is that licensing, certification, and recertification are functions of state government, not voluntary industry guidelines.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  > the first is that in order to be licensed nurses, like doctors and lawyers, have to pass an intensive test known as "boards." Board certification is not a legal requirement in any jurisdiction I am aware of. The licensure tests and board certifications are separate, and the former is generally taken very close to when the doctor, lawyer, or nurse graduates from their program and completes their internship period. > The second is that licensing, certification, and recertification are functions of state government, not voluntary industry guidelines. Yes and no. State governments decide what they will recognize, but industry provides the training. Some of the shit that counts as "continuing education" for the medical profession is little better than what you get at DeVry for programmers. That said, at least these professions have strong professional associations that birddog state licensing boards to keep the bullshit out. My original comment, in fact, was motivated by IEEE and ACM's attempts to do the same for software engineers and the way the industry seems to be laughing at their efforts.

dikdik 10y ago

My sister is a nurse (traveling nurse actually) and she does carry credentials. Moving to a new state requires you to get licensed all over again. However, from everything I can glean from the process, as a nurse you only have to take a certified test once. Then you just submit some paper work to have it renewed every few years, you do not need to retake boards every so often like physicians. When getting licensed in a new state (ie move from Montana to California), you just need to submit basic paperwork, background check/get finger printed and then you are licensed for the new state (no need to retake an exam). All these comments seem to indicate nurses have insanely high selective pressures to weed out people who suck. It's really, really not the case. The stories I hear about certain nurses who completely lack common sense are astounding. When my sister gets a new position (even when she started travel nursing after only 1 year of experience), she has a phone interview with a company hired by the hospital to find travel nurses. They may or may not contact her previous employers/references and then she finds out within a day or two if she has the job. It typically takes her 1 week to get a new assignment, 3 weeks tops if she is being exceptionally picky and trying to work in a specific area/hospital. That's all there is to it. She's gone through this process about 6 times in the past two years (I've even seen her do a phone interview while at a wine tasting! -- and she was offered the position) and she rarely stresses about these interviews as they are not technical.