6 ms·

After reading author's post I've a feeling that its not the programming skills that the author has issues with, but instead the attitude, stress durability, exp

by tachion 10y ago

After reading author's post I've a feeling that its not the programming skills that the author has issues with, but instead the attitude, stress durability, expectations to the world around him. True, hiring can be broken, it often is, but as with everything, the persistence usually allows us to find the proper company with proper hiring process. He's getting frustrated pretty quickly, complains when is asked to perform math-heavy coding, complains when is asked to do proper front end coding, so on and so forth - this type of people are not very pleasant to work with and very often their feelings, unability to adapt to difficult situations and attitude is very visible, putting off the recruiters. That is, of course, my personal feeling after reading that piece and I might be completely wrong.

tronje 10y ago
I agree with you. The author's inability to write a breadth-first-search under stress, for example, very much highlights this, in my opinion. I sort-of agree that these specific tasks shouldn't be used as an indicator of programming skills, but a breadth-first-search is really quite simple. It's mode of operation is in the name, and even if you haven't implemented one in a while, you should be able to derive some valid pseudo-code after a while. Especially if you do as much coding as this person claims, and thus are confronted with problems to solve on a regular basis.
- bpchaps 10y ago
  He posts a link to his github page, ffs! Sure, he could've modified that, but that just sounds incredibly silly, considering how open he is about everything else: https://github.com/sahat https://github.com/sahat I spend maybe four hours per coding in a moderately complex domain where I have zero need to know how to write a bfs. To ask someone to do it, then to ding them on it is just self-masturbatory behavior.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  The simplicity has nothing to do with it. For example, if you happen to be a very introverted person, then the social awkwardness of working in front of someone you don't know is enough to disrupt all your thinking abilities significantly. You're not only worried about the technical parts of the problem, but you are also worried about things like, "Oh god, I typed that semicolon in the wrong spot. This interviewer is going to think I'm an idiot..." and it's incredibly distracting. This is a normal mode of self-conscious thought for a huge number of people who are otherwise excellent at their jobs and perfectly functional (e.g. introverts). Plus, after you've worked a job for a while and know your team, know what's expected of you, and can get in the zone with some privacy, then these thoughts no longer really affect you. So they only play a significant role during an interview specifically because the interview is not at all a realistic representation of what working will be like. I find it incredibly disturbing that you see fit to infer anything from the author's so-called "inability" to program "under stress." When someone makes that kind of inference, I think it says a lot more about their dysfunction as a colleague than it says about the other person's programming skill. Even if this problem had been Fizz Buzz or swapping two numbers, it's so, so far from simulating what a real work social situation would be like that it renders it useless for assessing the candidate, no matter if they answer it perfectly or fail completely. It's just a useless scenario.
  - adam_mckenna 10y ago
    It's bro culture. They don't want introverts -- they want people to drink and watch the game with who they can high five.
- phaemon 10y ago
  Yeah, it would be like, say, a python developer not knowing how interpreted languages worked. Or how a shebang worked. To the extent of thinking it was impossible to use an interpreted language for `init`. Something like that, right?
collyw 10y ago
Persistence is a pain in the arse if you have to spend 1.5 hours every Hackerrank challenge (plus you are likely to want a warm up of at least half an hour). Say you have to do ten of those. Why can't employers ask you to bring in some previous work and discuss it? Surely that is a lot more relevant than algorithmic stuff that you likely haven't used for years.
- gcb0 10y ago
  previous work is fine in this case. but i worked at a place that was a pita to release open source code, so i learned to always work open source anonymously. i wouldn't want to break that anonymity. also, i already had the displeasure of having a candidate turn his laptop to me and show his great coding a skills with a competitor online app store (yes, a major brand app store source), and i had to get involved in all sorts of annoyance from HR and legal. maybe I'm just dumb for taking those things seriously... but i think that's for the better
- ionforce 10y ago
  > bring in some previous work Surely your prior work is under some sort of NDA? It's all proprietary (unless it is open source).
  - icedchai 10y ago
    You'd think people would respect NDA's, right? Not so... I've had people submit proprietary code samples during the interview process.
  - collyw 10y ago
    I have side projects that I am working on, quite happy to show those - its one of the motivations for doing them so that I have code to show people.
- efoto 10y ago
  I once persuaded an interviewer to look at my implementation of a generic linked list online and discuss it, rather than making me write one on a whiteboard. I had enough courage to say that people should not write same stuff over and over, but rather do it once properly. I got an offer and accepted it.
beambot 10y ago
Indeed. You would think that someone who is smart, capable, and clearly determined early on (as in pre-Google interview) that many potential employers would ask algorithm questions.... Would, you know, study up on some algorithms? It probably isn't the "right" way for programming interviews, but once you identify the rules of the game, it behooves you to play the game accordingly, no?
- tehwebguy 10y ago
  Author sees the game and decides it is rigged, there is more than a paragraph on this.
- ionforce 10y ago
  Maybe some people are too proud to play the game. Fundamentally, I agree that it is silly to ask questions that don't have a high degree of relevance to the job in question. But I am conflicted. Why haven't we (as an industry) done better with this? Clearly there must be a reason or friction in asking relevant questions in lieu of the current batch of algorithmic type interviews. What is that reason?
bpchaps 10y ago
If interviews weren't scheduled at the drop of a hat and employers actually took the time to decide whether to bring someone in for an onsite interview, then this wouldn't be a problem as big as it is. Fact is, when someone needs to take a day off of work, or to do schedule gymnastics for every one of their interviews of course your attitude's going to get screwed up in the process. It's exhausting, often humiliating and incredibly impersonal.
- reitoei 10y ago
  Flew to Ireland from the UK for a interview (at my own expense). Did a decent interview, never got a call/email back. People can be assholes.
  - autotune 10y ago
    Did they not agree to expense your trip? Back when I was job searching and looking to move cities I would never have agreed to pay for a flight to an interview out of my own pocket, and never had a company request for me to do such a thing.
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    Definitely should have used phone/skype/gtm for the first few interviews, until they proved their interest.
  - ionforce 10y ago
    But paying out of pocket and commuting, wasn't that your decision to put yourself into that scenario? It's immediately (and clearly) lop-sided.
    - bpchaps 10y ago
      Honestly, does it matter?
      - poikniok 10y ago
        Yes?
swayvil 10y ago
You are right. His problem is that he is not persistent enough. Maybe he lacks passion.
- r3bl 10y ago
  Why does he need to be persistent? He proved that he's a decent programmer by releasing a bunch of semi-successful open source projects. He worked at Yahoo. He has 900+ days GitHub streak. That makes him passionate about building things more than a huge chunk of programmers. Not being able to implement a random algorithm on a whiteboard while applying for a front-end position has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of passion. Of course he gave up, and so would I if I was in his shoes.
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    He worked at Yahoo. Tbh, that could be a negative, there were a lot of lousy programmers at Yahoo. Doug Crockford worked there, so there were a lot of really good programmers too, but you can't know just based on working at Yahoo.
  - swayvil 10y ago
    append /S Sorry, I forgot that I was talking to oompaloompas
ktRolster 10y ago
the author has issues with, but instead the attitude, stress durability, expectations to the world around him. That seems like a reasonable interpretation, emphasized by when he got through all the programming questions without a problem, and still didn't get the job. One thing I've found when I'm interviewing, I try to be enthusiastic and act like I really want to work at the company, even when it's a boring company. Attitude makes a huge difference.
- bpchaps 10y ago
  Do you have any idea how easy it is to tell when someone's doing that? Or going even further, how exhausting this is for someone who's not good at it? Why not just be genuine?
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    Or going even further, how exhausting this is for someone who's not good at it? Why not just be genuine? Yes, I do. I don't act genuine because when I'm my genuine self, I glare at everyone in the room with the rage of a thousand suns. I don't know if people can tell that I'm hiding it or not, but when I try to hide and act enthusiastic, I get the job, when I don't, I don't.
    - bpchaps 10y ago
      Fair enough. I'm the same way. Somewhere along the line, though, I learned to stop caring about pretending to be excited and just accept that a majority of companies won't hire me for what they perceive to be a lack of apathy. It's a pretty good filter for finding companies that I'd be happy working at, but I understand that it's not for everybody. I just hope for a much more genuine tech/otherwise community so that I don't have to pretend anymore. Pretending just feels like shit. I'm not saying any of this under any financial comfort. I'm friggin' broke right now. Though, I'm much more content with myself, my quality of work has skyrocketed and I've learned to bulk cook a mean chicken thigh and lentil soup.
      - 10y ago
adultSwim 10y ago
I understand some of the authors sentiments. Still, they come off as entitled. Perhaps OP should try avoiding recruiters and big sexy firms. They report having a positive interview experience but were disappointed for being passed over. "How is this possible — I have received emails from people all over the world, who praise and give me thanks for the work I’ve done on my open-source projects and tutorials (#humblebrag)" Perhaps there was simply another qualified candidate? OP could use a little actual humility. I do understand OPs point that the interview process can feel disconnected from the actual work. However writing software is only part of being a software engineer. Communication / working with others is also important. This is where attitude fits in. Being a professional isn't just about wearing the right clothes/etc. Don't mean to beat up on the OP. Perhaps they would be a great employee and are feeling a little discouraged. Still, seems like all the praise for developers (e.g. being solicited by recruiters) has gone to their head.
- sinker 10y ago
  How is this possible — I have received emails from people all over the world, who praise and give me thanks for the work I’ve done on my open-source projects and tutorials (#humblebrag) Did he say that this should immediately qualify him for any job? No, his point was that although he has real-world projects used by hundreds of devs, this gives him barely any credence at all in interviews. Is it so "entitled" for him to expect that his work should speak on some of his behalf?
Disruptive_Dave 10y ago
Agreed. He made some valid points, and I don't think many people would call today's hiring process (or variations of) in a great place. > I do not consider myself to be an excellent programmer, maybe an average at best (who can’t even pass a single tech interview), and a GitHub commit streak has absolutely nothing to do with one’s competence, skill or ability to code...my job at Yahoo was my first and will likely be my last one. From this moment on, I would rather be unemployed and homeless rather than do another tech interview. Enough is enough. I’ve hit my limit with this broken hiring bullshit in tech. No. More. Interviews. Done. This comes off more as a "Oooh, I have a great post idea that will pick up traction on Medium!" move than anything else, unfortunately.
malz 10y ago
Exactly. If you think hiring is broken, wait until you try working. Working is totally broken. Why was I asked to implement X and then it was cancelled two weeks later? How am I supposed to concentrate in a room full of 40 people? Why do my bosses drive Benzes while I do all the work?
balls187 10y ago
> its not the programming skills that the author has issues with, but instead the attitude vs: > At some point during our conversation I casually mentioned Webpack 2 and tree-shaking, which was followed by a question on how would I implement a tree-shaking algorithm. How the hell would I know? Attitude cuts both ways.
st3v3r 10y ago
How come every time someone expresses frustration in a blog post, everyone assumes it's their attitude that's to blame? That the frustration they expressed in the blog post is the same attitude that they showed during the interviews?

by tachion 10y ago

tronje 10y ago

I agree with you. The author's inability to write a breadth-first-search under stress, for example, very much highlights this, in my opinion. I sort-of agree that these specific tasks shouldn't be used as an indicator of programming skills, but a breadth-first-search is really quite simple. It's mode of operation is in the name, and even if you haven't implemented one in a while, you should be able to derive some valid pseudo-code after a while. Especially if you do as much coding as this person claims, and thus are confronted with problems to solve on a regular basis.

bpchaps 10y ago
He posts a link to his github page, ffs! Sure, he could've modified that, but that just sounds incredibly silly, considering how open he is about everything else: https://github.com/sahat https://github.com/sahat I spend maybe four hours per coding in a moderately complex domain where I have zero need to know how to write a bfs. To ask someone to do it, then to ding them on it is just self-masturbatory behavior.
p4wnc6 10y ago
The simplicity has nothing to do with it. For example, if you happen to be a very introverted person, then the social awkwardness of working in front of someone you don't know is enough to disrupt all your thinking abilities significantly. You're not only worried about the technical parts of the problem, but you are also worried about things like, "Oh god, I typed that semicolon in the wrong spot. This interviewer is going to think I'm an idiot..." and it's incredibly distracting. This is a normal mode of self-conscious thought for a huge number of people who are otherwise excellent at their jobs and perfectly functional (e.g. introverts). Plus, after you've worked a job for a while and know your team, know what's expected of you, and can get in the zone with some privacy, then these thoughts no longer really affect you. So they only play a significant role during an interview specifically because the interview is not at all a realistic representation of what working will be like. I find it incredibly disturbing that you see fit to infer anything from the author's so-called "inability" to program "under stress." When someone makes that kind of inference, I think it says a lot more about their dysfunction as a colleague than it says about the other person's programming skill. Even if this problem had been Fizz Buzz or swapping two numbers, it's so, so far from simulating what a real work social situation would be like that it renders it useless for assessing the candidate, no matter if they answer it perfectly or fail completely. It's just a useless scenario.
- adam_mckenna 10y ago
  It's bro culture. They don't want introverts -- they want people to drink and watch the game with who they can high five.
phaemon 10y ago
Yeah, it would be like, say, a python developer not knowing how interpreted languages worked. Or how a shebang worked. To the extent of thinking it was impossible to use an interpreted language for `init`. Something like that, right?

collyw 10y ago

Persistence is a pain in the arse if you have to spend 1.5 hours every Hackerrank challenge (plus you are likely to want a warm up of at least half an hour). Say you have to do ten of those. Why can't employers ask you to bring in some previous work and discuss it? Surely that is a lot more relevant than algorithmic stuff that you likely haven't used for years.

gcb0 10y ago
previous work is fine in this case. but i worked at a place that was a pita to release open source code, so i learned to always work open source anonymously. i wouldn't want to break that anonymity. also, i already had the displeasure of having a candidate turn his laptop to me and show his great coding a skills with a competitor online app store (yes, a major brand app store source), and i had to get involved in all sorts of annoyance from HR and legal. maybe I'm just dumb for taking those things seriously... but i think that's for the better
ionforce 10y ago
> bring in some previous work Surely your prior work is under some sort of NDA? It's all proprietary (unless it is open source).
- icedchai 10y ago
  You'd think people would respect NDA's, right? Not so... I've had people submit proprietary code samples during the interview process.
- collyw 10y ago
  I have side projects that I am working on, quite happy to show those - its one of the motivations for doing them so that I have code to show people.
efoto 10y ago
I once persuaded an interviewer to look at my implementation of a generic linked list online and discuss it, rather than making me write one on a whiteboard. I had enough courage to say that people should not write same stuff over and over, but rather do it once properly. I got an offer and accepted it.

beambot 10y ago

Indeed. You would think that someone who is smart, capable, and clearly determined early on (as in pre-Google interview) that many potential employers would ask algorithm questions.... Would, you know, study up on some algorithms? It probably isn't the "right" way for programming interviews, but once you identify the rules of the game, it behooves you to play the game accordingly, no?

tehwebguy 10y ago
Author sees the game and decides it is rigged, there is more than a paragraph on this.
ionforce 10y ago
Maybe some people are too proud to play the game. Fundamentally, I agree that it is silly to ask questions that don't have a high degree of relevance to the job in question. But I am conflicted. Why haven't we (as an industry) done better with this? Clearly there must be a reason or friction in asking relevant questions in lieu of the current batch of algorithmic type interviews. What is that reason?

bpchaps 10y ago

If interviews weren't scheduled at the drop of a hat and employers actually took the time to decide whether to bring someone in for an onsite interview, then this wouldn't be a problem as big as it is. Fact is, when someone needs to take a day off of work, or to do schedule gymnastics for every one of their interviews of course your attitude's going to get screwed up in the process. It's exhausting, often humiliating and incredibly impersonal.

reitoei 10y ago
Flew to Ireland from the UK for a interview (at my own expense). Did a decent interview, never got a call/email back. People can be assholes.
- autotune 10y ago
  Did they not agree to expense your trip? Back when I was job searching and looking to move cities I would never have agreed to pay for a flight to an interview out of my own pocket, and never had a company request for me to do such a thing.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  Definitely should have used phone/skype/gtm for the first few interviews, until they proved their interest.
- ionforce 10y ago
  But paying out of pocket and commuting, wasn't that your decision to put yourself into that scenario? It's immediately (and clearly) lop-sided.
  - bpchaps 10y ago
    Honestly, does it matter?
    - poikniok 10y ago
      Yes?

swayvil 10y ago

You are right. His problem is that he is not persistent enough. Maybe he lacks passion.

r3bl 10y ago
Why does he need to be persistent? He proved that he's a decent programmer by releasing a bunch of semi-successful open source projects. He worked at Yahoo. He has 900+ days GitHub streak. That makes him passionate about building things more than a huge chunk of programmers. Not being able to implement a random algorithm on a whiteboard while applying for a front-end position has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of passion. Of course he gave up, and so would I if I was in his shoes.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  He worked at Yahoo. Tbh, that could be a negative, there were a lot of lousy programmers at Yahoo. Doug Crockford worked there, so there were a lot of really good programmers too, but you can't know just based on working at Yahoo.
- swayvil 10y ago
  append /S Sorry, I forgot that I was talking to oompaloompas

ktRolster 10y ago

the author has issues with, but instead the attitude, stress durability, expectations to the world around him. That seems like a reasonable interpretation, emphasized by when he got through all the programming questions without a problem, and still didn't get the job. One thing I've found when I'm interviewing, I try to be enthusiastic and act like I really want to work at the company, even when it's a boring company. Attitude makes a huge difference.

bpchaps 10y ago
Do you have any idea how easy it is to tell when someone's doing that? Or going even further, how exhausting this is for someone who's not good at it? Why not just be genuine?
- ktRolster 10y ago
  Or going even further, how exhausting this is for someone who's not good at it? Why not just be genuine? Yes, I do. I don't act genuine because when I'm my genuine self, I glare at everyone in the room with the rage of a thousand suns. I don't know if people can tell that I'm hiding it or not, but when I try to hide and act enthusiastic, I get the job, when I don't, I don't.
  - bpchaps 10y ago
    Fair enough. I'm the same way. Somewhere along the line, though, I learned to stop caring about pretending to be excited and just accept that a majority of companies won't hire me for what they perceive to be a lack of apathy. It's a pretty good filter for finding companies that I'd be happy working at, but I understand that it's not for everybody. I just hope for a much more genuine tech/otherwise community so that I don't have to pretend anymore. Pretending just feels like shit. I'm not saying any of this under any financial comfort. I'm friggin' broke right now. Though, I'm much more content with myself, my quality of work has skyrocketed and I've learned to bulk cook a mean chicken thigh and lentil soup.
    - 10y ago

adultSwim 10y ago

I understand some of the authors sentiments. Still, they come off as entitled. Perhaps OP should try avoiding recruiters and big sexy firms. They report having a positive interview experience but were disappointed for being passed over. "How is this possible — I have received emails from people all over the world, who praise and give me thanks for the work I’ve done on my open-source projects and tutorials (#humblebrag)" Perhaps there was simply another qualified candidate? OP could use a little actual humility. I do understand OPs point that the interview process can feel disconnected from the actual work. However writing software is only part of being a software engineer. Communication / working with others is also important. This is where attitude fits in. Being a professional isn't just about wearing the right clothes/etc. Don't mean to beat up on the OP. Perhaps they would be a great employee and are feeling a little discouraged. Still, seems like all the praise for developers (e.g. being solicited by recruiters) has gone to their head.

sinker 10y ago
How is this possible — I have received emails from people all over the world, who praise and give me thanks for the work I’ve done on my open-source projects and tutorials (#humblebrag) Did he say that this should immediately qualify him for any job? No, his point was that although he has real-world projects used by hundreds of devs, this gives him barely any credence at all in interviews. Is it so "entitled" for him to expect that his work should speak on some of his behalf?

Disruptive_Dave 10y ago

Agreed. He made some valid points, and I don't think many people would call today's hiring process (or variations of) in a great place. > I do not consider myself to be an excellent programmer, maybe an average at best (who can’t even pass a single tech interview), and a GitHub commit streak has absolutely nothing to do with one’s competence, skill or ability to code...my job at Yahoo was my first and will likely be my last one. From this moment on, I would rather be unemployed and homeless rather than do another tech interview. Enough is enough. I’ve hit my limit with this broken hiring bullshit in tech. No. More. Interviews. Done. This comes off more as a "Oooh, I have a great post idea that will pick up traction on Medium!" move than anything else, unfortunately.

malz 10y ago

Exactly. If you think hiring is broken, wait until you try working. Working is totally broken. Why was I asked to implement X and then it was cancelled two weeks later? How am I supposed to concentrate in a room full of 40 people? Why do my bosses drive Benzes while I do all the work?

balls187 10y ago

> its not the programming skills that the author has issues with, but instead the attitude vs: > At some point during our conversation I casually mentioned Webpack 2 and tree-shaking, which was followed by a question on how would I implement a tree-shaking algorithm. How the hell would I know? Attitude cuts both ways.

st3v3r 10y ago

How come every time someone expresses frustration in a blog post, everyone assumes it's their attitude that's to blame? That the frustration they expressed in the blog post is the same attitude that they showed during the interviews?