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I think outrage (of which anger is a component) is a natural reaction to someone scamming their way into a position of massive funding that many people are work

by ebbv 11y ago

I think outrage (of which anger is a component) is a natural reaction to someone scamming their way into a position of massive funding that many people are working tirelessly to try to reach. Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because they will probably fail and be punished is kind of silly. Do we say don't be mad at a murderer just because they are going to go to jail? Punishment or even resolution of a problem doesn't mitigate the emotional reaction to that problem for most people.

mbesto 11y ago
To take this further, Theranos raised an estimated $400m. There a lot of people (including myself) who could have used that money (it's fungible) to create something that actually existed. Even at a paltry $2M per company (a typical seed round these days), it could have meant another 20 companies could have been created, or at least be given a fighting chance.
- jdmichal 11y ago
  Just a note that your math was off by a factor of 10; it would be 200 companies at $2mm each.
  - mbesto 11y ago
    Good catch.
pj_mukh 11y ago
Murderers have a victim party that lay charges. Have the investors or beta users laid charges? I actually don't know. Like I said AFAIK, Theranos hasn't taken money away from any more deserving startup. Though, I agree $400M is A LOT of money gone to a supposed undeserved startup. Maybe that's the source of the rage.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Money is finite. Money given to Theranos means the funds have less money to invest elsewhere. So yes, they did take money away from more deserving startups.
- toss1 11y ago
  Wow. Just because there is not yet a specific harm to a specific person enumerated to you in a way that you understand and agree with, no one should be annoyed and everyone should just let it happen? There do exist broader harms, and people's behavior can be so egregious that it "offends the sensibilities". Start with the least of, yet most salient of your stated issues: did Theranos divert money from other more deserving startups -- 'AFAYK, no specific one of those dollars was kept from another specific deserving startup familiar to you, so it's OK'? Really? Are you saying that all other startups are similarly dishonest and undeserving, or that because because no one can specifically track it to your satisfaction, no one should be PO'd? Related to your other posts, and as another responder commented, this is not a case of a mere unfinished app with noticeable demand, to which funds and effort are applied until it gets built-out until v1.1 gets rolled out. This is a case where the "app" is a blood test critical to people's lives, determining drug dosages, treatment courses and outcomes, etc. A failure here can really f*$k up someone's life or kill them, not just inconvenience them because the app failed to load and order their dinner. Moreover, this is a case where Theranos clearly must have known that the basic technology DID NOT WORK and COULD NOT BE MADE TO WORK with any reasonable effort. The right thing to do after a suitable amount of R&D is to shut it down and return remaining money to investors. Many startups have done this. Instead, Theranos decided perpetrate a continuing fraud on investors, customers and the public. They used competitor's machines claiming to be using their own machines. This defrauds everyone, pollutes the investing and entrepreneurial ecosystem, and puts patients at risk. (but AFAYK, this is no reason for anyone to be even a bit annoyed...) Worse yet, and this is one of the bases for the govt's CRIMINAL investigation, Theranos was using hordes of UNQUALIFIED technicians running both the test equipment, and they even CONTINUED to do so after being previously warned by the govt. WTF?!? This is the most simple, basic management -- no science or engineering here -- just use some of your $400MM to hire people with the required credentials to perform tests upon which people rely for their health and life. And the CEO then said that she didn't know about it? This is just obviously a culture of fraud and corner-cutting, in which the only thing that mattered was the image. Theranos may indeed have started out as an honest development effort (I hope so). But at some point it obviously became clear internally that the tech did not and would not work. At that point, Theranos decided (explicitly or implicitly) to continue to maintain the facade, and wandered off into fraud. If you don't understand that this kind of behavior violates social and legal norms in many ways, and that people are normally annoyed at these sorts of violations and failures to uphold the norms that bind us together as a society, then I'm not sure anyone could help you. And saying that it is OK to lie, cheat, and steal as long as nobody can articulate a specific harm to a specific person puts you on the outside of society, and not in a good way. OTOH, if you're just trolling, then well played.

by ebbv 11y ago

mbesto 11y ago

To take this further, Theranos raised an estimated $400m. There a lot of people (including myself) who could have used that money (it's fungible) to create something that actually existed. Even at a paltry $2M per company (a typical seed round these days), it could have meant another 20 companies could have been created, or at least be given a fighting chance.

jdmichal 11y ago
Just a note that your math was off by a factor of 10; it would be 200 companies at $2mm each.
- mbesto 11y ago
  Good catch.

pj_mukh 11y ago

Murderers have a victim party that lay charges. Have the investors or beta users laid charges? I actually don't know. Like I said AFAIK, Theranos hasn't taken money away from any more deserving startup. Though, I agree $400M is A LOT of money gone to a supposed undeserved startup. Maybe that's the source of the rage.

st3v3r 11y ago
Money is finite. Money given to Theranos means the funds have less money to invest elsewhere. So yes, they did take money away from more deserving startups.
toss1 11y ago
Wow. Just because there is not yet a specific harm to a specific person enumerated to you in a way that you understand and agree with, no one should be annoyed and everyone should just let it happen? There do exist broader harms, and people's behavior can be so egregious that it "offends the sensibilities". Start with the least of, yet most salient of your stated issues: did Theranos divert money from other more deserving startups -- 'AFAYK, no specific one of those dollars was kept from another specific deserving startup familiar to you, so it's OK'? Really? Are you saying that all other startups are similarly dishonest and undeserving, or that because because no one can specifically track it to your satisfaction, no one should be PO'd? Related to your other posts, and as another responder commented, this is not a case of a mere unfinished app with noticeable demand, to which funds and effort are applied until it gets built-out until v1.1 gets rolled out. This is a case where the "app" is a blood test critical to people's lives, determining drug dosages, treatment courses and outcomes, etc. A failure here can really f*$k up someone's life or kill them, not just inconvenience them because the app failed to load and order their dinner. Moreover, this is a case where Theranos clearly must have known that the basic technology DID NOT WORK and COULD NOT BE MADE TO WORK with any reasonable effort. The right thing to do after a suitable amount of R&D is to shut it down and return remaining money to investors. Many startups have done this. Instead, Theranos decided perpetrate a continuing fraud on investors, customers and the public. They used competitor's machines claiming to be using their own machines. This defrauds everyone, pollutes the investing and entrepreneurial ecosystem, and puts patients at risk. (but AFAYK, this is no reason for anyone to be even a bit annoyed...) Worse yet, and this is one of the bases for the govt's CRIMINAL investigation, Theranos was using hordes of UNQUALIFIED technicians running both the test equipment, and they even CONTINUED to do so after being previously warned by the govt. WTF?!? This is the most simple, basic management -- no science or engineering here -- just use some of your $400MM to hire people with the required credentials to perform tests upon which people rely for their health and life. And the CEO then said that she didn't know about it? This is just obviously a culture of fraud and corner-cutting, in which the only thing that mattered was the image. Theranos may indeed have started out as an honest development effort (I hope so). But at some point it obviously became clear internally that the tech did not and would not work. At that point, Theranos decided (explicitly or implicitly) to continue to maintain the facade, and wandered off into fraud. If you don't understand that this kind of behavior violates social and legal norms in many ways, and that people are normally annoyed at these sorts of violations and failures to uphold the norms that bind us together as a society, then I'm not sure anyone could help you. And saying that it is OK to lie, cheat, and steal as long as nobody can articulate a specific harm to a specific person puts you on the outside of society, and not in a good way. OTOH, if you're just trolling, then well played.