6 ms·

Stanford archaeologist traces the origins of authority to the Andes of Peru

dschiptsov 11y ago
And from there it came to China and India?
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  More like, the same tools were implemented everywhere about the same time. For example, exploiting water sources as part of your tools to control people is a big part of early empire building efforts in China and Mesopotamia. Without water you really can't grow much food. And without a regular source of food you're easier to kill off without risking soldiers. So, it stands to reason that our civilization went down this path due to the factors of production regarding agriculture. All it would take is a few strong and organized bands of thugs to manhandle the rest of the population. Add religion or some weird myth to back up authenticity of the authority then you got a solid base from which to expand and influence other areas. It's also why areas like Zomia came into being as empires clashed then people got tired of the nonsense and fled quite literally for the foothills of mountain ranges. It seems to me it's odd the anthropologists didn't notice this pattern in the stories, written records, and art of each culture examined. It's a hard pattern to miss. I wonder if we as a civilization have become so indoctrinated in seeing authority as authentic and desirable that we can't see how often it's propped up by fear of reprisal and blind faith.
mc32 11y ago
So this is where authoritarianism arose? And it propagated to other places how? Or is this mostly conjecture and lots of guesswork? I like fantasy and imagination as much as the next person but I think drawing stark conclusions from architecture and "graffiti" should be taken with a grain of salt. And I guess ancient Egyptians were not authoritarian, or, what exactly were they?
- CapitalistCartr 11y ago
  I thought this was odd because, after the Agricultural Revolution, what society wasn't authoritarian? It seems to have spontaneously arose everywhere.
  - mc32 11y ago
    Yeah exactly. It'd be like thinking we can trace "fire" to a single location. These things arise with "need". The right conditions present themselves and these things (inventions, discoveries processes, rituals, etc, etc) arise to fill in the vacuum. Just like this archeologist probably feels some pressure to produce something exciting during his fellowship at the center.
- dschiptsov 11y ago
  This is called science nowadays. We had a whole bunch of degenerates who publish papers which prove that so-called proto-Russians wrote Vedas because symbols similar to swastikas has been found on some excavations somewhere in taiga. Idiots, idiots everywhere. The formalized process of extraction of knowledge of underlying fundamental principles from surrounding Brahman is what we call scientific inquiry. The goal, emphasised by Buddha, is to see things as they are, without piling up meaningless abstraction and producing himeras and dogmas. According to the principle of similar environmental conditioning, similar social formations would emerge due to similar selection pressures. The notion of authority goes back to families with dominant individuals and to the collective child care as an effective evolutionary strategy. "Scientists" who have understood as little as this would never have published such nonsense like a single origin of phenomena which is a natural adaptation and is shared among many animals. Similarly, segregated societies could arrive at similar symbols and notions independently, by observing and reflecting on the similar (the same) environment, without any connection whatsoever.
  - dredmorbius 11y ago
    I suspect the more immediate problem is with university publicity offices. Stanford's is particularly bad in this regard. Though much academic science has flaws as well.
HillaryBriss 11y ago
> ... visitors were elite pilgrims, local leaders from far-flung parts of the Central Andes. These people were looking for justification to elevate their own status and their positions of control in society. After their experiences at Chavín, they would use the experiences to more adroitly disseminate messages of authority to their own people, the researchers said. Just like visitors to Burning Man, Coachella and Davos
- mc32 11y ago
  Sort of but not really. I don't think Putin or Xi or Assad gained further authority by attending any of those. I say sort of because it depends on how much you are willing to distort the meaning of "authoritarianism".
  - HillaryBriss 11y ago
    Those guys have already kind of maxed out their authority. Anyway, they're more like the high priests in this analogy. What about the high school senior who's looking to be the next student body president, or the mid level manager looking to be promoted into the executive layer? Build status. Increase your level of authority.
Mikeb85 11y ago
Yeah, because authority isn't natural in animals, primates included, and people never accumulate more than others in basic economies, and never use power or influence over others...
- solve 11y ago
  Sometimes I wish HN used these nonsense stories as a gullibility test. Revoke the upvote powers of anyone who upvotes this pure nonsense.
  - duaneb 11y ago
    Your degree in anthropology blesses us all with your judgment—here I was thinking I might not understand the underlying research correctly. This community is the best!
- bcoates 11y ago
  Projecting human social structures onto animal interactions almost always results in wrong conclusions about both.
  - overcast 11y ago
    Humans are animals.
    - duaneb 11y ago
      ...for all definitions of animals that don't exclude humans, yes. Humans have unique characteristics that are central here, like effective use of abstract language, social stratification, and socially managed resources.
wfn 11y ago
Related: has anyone here read "Society Against the State"[1]? I've been meaning to start reading it but haven't as of yet. It's a set of essays; supposed to be based on some good anthropological work done by Clastres. If you have, interested to hear critical etc thoughts on his views. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clastres#Society_Against_the_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clastres#Society_Agains...
bikamonki 11y ago
We = apes. Apes social structure = hierarchy. Problem solved. Gimme my PHD please.
skapadia 11y ago
So it was basically a leadership conference in the Andes. Happy hour must have been a fun time!
calibraxis 11y ago
Interested people should see this team-up by anthropologist David Graeber and archaeologist David Wengrow: https://vimeo.com/145285143 https://vimeo.com/145285143 They're writing a book on the topic of the origins of inequality. One interesting thing is how seasonal it was. (After all, for maybe 75k years, humans could theorize about society as well as any of us.) Fairly recently, we made temporary structures of hierarchy permanent.

And from there it came to China and India?

norea-armozel 11y ago
More like, the same tools were implemented everywhere about the same time. For example, exploiting water sources as part of your tools to control people is a big part of early empire building efforts in China and Mesopotamia. Without water you really can't grow much food. And without a regular source of food you're easier to kill off without risking soldiers. So, it stands to reason that our civilization went down this path due to the factors of production regarding agriculture. All it would take is a few strong and organized bands of thugs to manhandle the rest of the population. Add religion or some weird myth to back up authenticity of the authority then you got a solid base from which to expand and influence other areas. It's also why areas like Zomia came into being as empires clashed then people got tired of the nonsense and fled quite literally for the foothills of mountain ranges. It seems to me it's odd the anthropologists didn't notice this pattern in the stories, written records, and art of each culture examined. It's a hard pattern to miss. I wonder if we as a civilization have become so indoctrinated in seeing authority as authentic and desirable that we can't see how often it's propped up by fear of reprisal and blind faith.

mc32 11y ago

So this is where authoritarianism arose? And it propagated to other places how? Or is this mostly conjecture and lots of guesswork? I like fantasy and imagination as much as the next person but I think drawing stark conclusions from architecture and "graffiti" should be taken with a grain of salt. And I guess ancient Egyptians were not authoritarian, or, what exactly were they?

CapitalistCartr 11y ago
I thought this was odd because, after the Agricultural Revolution, what society wasn't authoritarian? It seems to have spontaneously arose everywhere.
- mc32 11y ago
  Yeah exactly. It'd be like thinking we can trace "fire" to a single location. These things arise with "need". The right conditions present themselves and these things (inventions, discoveries processes, rituals, etc, etc) arise to fill in the vacuum. Just like this archeologist probably feels some pressure to produce something exciting during his fellowship at the center.
dschiptsov 11y ago
This is called science nowadays. We had a whole bunch of degenerates who publish papers which prove that so-called proto-Russians wrote Vedas because symbols similar to swastikas has been found on some excavations somewhere in taiga. Idiots, idiots everywhere. The formalized process of extraction of knowledge of underlying fundamental principles from surrounding Brahman is what we call scientific inquiry. The goal, emphasised by Buddha, is to see things as they are, without piling up meaningless abstraction and producing himeras and dogmas. According to the principle of similar environmental conditioning, similar social formations would emerge due to similar selection pressures. The notion of authority goes back to families with dominant individuals and to the collective child care as an effective evolutionary strategy. "Scientists" who have understood as little as this would never have published such nonsense like a single origin of phenomena which is a natural adaptation and is shared among many animals. Similarly, segregated societies could arrive at similar symbols and notions independently, by observing and reflecting on the similar (the same) environment, without any connection whatsoever.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  I suspect the more immediate problem is with university publicity offices. Stanford's is particularly bad in this regard. Though much academic science has flaws as well.

HillaryBriss 11y ago

> ... visitors were elite pilgrims, local leaders from far-flung parts of the Central Andes. These people were looking for justification to elevate their own status and their positions of control in society. After their experiences at Chavín, they would use the experiences to more adroitly disseminate messages of authority to their own people, the researchers said. Just like visitors to Burning Man, Coachella and Davos

mc32 11y ago
Sort of but not really. I don't think Putin or Xi or Assad gained further authority by attending any of those. I say sort of because it depends on how much you are willing to distort the meaning of "authoritarianism".
- HillaryBriss 11y ago
  Those guys have already kind of maxed out their authority. Anyway, they're more like the high priests in this analogy. What about the high school senior who's looking to be the next student body president, or the mid level manager looking to be promoted into the executive layer? Build status. Increase your level of authority.

Mikeb85 11y ago

Yeah, because authority isn't natural in animals, primates included, and people never accumulate more than others in basic economies, and never use power or influence over others...

solve 11y ago
Sometimes I wish HN used these nonsense stories as a gullibility test. Revoke the upvote powers of anyone who upvotes this pure nonsense.
- duaneb 11y ago
  Your degree in anthropology blesses us all with your judgment—here I was thinking I might not understand the underlying research correctly. This community is the best!
bcoates 11y ago
Projecting human social structures onto animal interactions almost always results in wrong conclusions about both.
- overcast 11y ago
  Humans are animals.
  - duaneb 11y ago
    ...for all definitions of animals that don't exclude humans, yes. Humans have unique characteristics that are central here, like effective use of abstract language, social stratification, and socially managed resources.

wfn 11y ago

Related: has anyone here read "Society Against the State"[1]? I've been meaning to start reading it but haven't as of yet. It's a set of essays; supposed to be based on some good anthropological work done by Clastres. If you have, interested to hear critical etc thoughts on his views. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clastres#Society_Against_the_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clastres#Society_Agains...

bikamonki 11y ago

We = apes. Apes social structure = hierarchy. Problem solved. Gimme my PHD please.

skapadia 11y ago

So it was basically a leadership conference in the Andes. Happy hour must have been a fun time!

calibraxis 11y ago

Interested people should see this team-up by anthropologist David Graeber and archaeologist David Wengrow: https://vimeo.com/145285143 https://vimeo.com/145285143 They're writing a book on the topic of the origins of inequality. One interesting thing is how seasonal it was. (After all, for maybe 75k years, humans could theorize about society as well as any of us.) Fairly recently, we made temporary structures of hierarchy permanent.