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node.js and JavaScript in general make PHP look a well designed decent language and ecosystem. I cannot grok how can people chose this stack to create any prod

node.js and JavaScript in general make PHP look a well designed decent language and ecosystem. I cannot grok how can people chose this stack to create any product in it.

homogeneous 11y ago
What does this type of condescending bile add to the discussion? Thousands of companies successfully use PHP and node to write excellent software every day. If you despise node so fervently, why are you even engaging in a thread about the latest node release? Personally, I prefer ruby whenever its an option, but I've worked with node in the past and it's a decent platform that worked very well for the company (a commercial app servicing about 840k api and page requests per month). I just don't understand the hate.
- aviraldg 11y ago
  So negative opinions about '*' should never be expressed? JavaScript is a terrible language, and imho es2015 fixes a lot of broken stuff in the only backwards-compatible way it can. That said, I find the entire micropackage culture around npm and node, coupled with the hundreds of packages that typically constitute build scripts for even a smallish node project make me realize just how brittle it is compared to competing platforms.
  - nilliams 11y ago
    There's a difference between being negative with specific complaints versus hyperbolic, drive-by FUD. Regarding your own complaints with Node. You're over-generalising. Nobody says you must use small modules. Larger libraries and frameworks exist. Same goes for build scripts. Also read this to get more context on small modules: https://github.com/sindresorhus/ama/issues/10 https://github.com/sindresorhus/ama/issues/10
  - homogeneous 11y ago
    "Negative opinions" are fine. Heaping on condescending substance-free exclamations of ridicule in the middle of a thread about a specific issue regarding a platform you don't even use is just toxic arrogance. Your "micropackage" complaint is daft; if you don't like small modules don't use them. Why is the language to blame for free, open-source code that you don't have to use? How is this even a legitimate complaint? You don't need hundreds of packages for anything and you can find examples of this in any language.
PopsiclePete 11y ago
What language/eco-system isn't horrible, honestly? In some way? What's your "ideal" stack? Professional, I have used or am using C/C++, Python, Ruby, Javascript, some Java, some C#, Golang. Our of all of those the only one I don't really hate is Golang. In every other language/eco-system I can point to at least a dozen things that are awful. In Golang - maybe only 9. Node has NPM with a huge eco-system. It's fast. Javascript, if written correctly, can be a pleasure to use, IMO. And even if you can't use it idiomatically for some reason, you can use Cofeescript/Typescript or whatever that forces some sort of code structure/discipline. Node itself is decent if you understand how to ignore callback-pyramid-of-death with Promises and reactive-type programming.
- kodfodrasz 11y ago
  Not all suck, at least not as much as the one in the discussion... I have used most of those you listed, and some esoteric/legacy/proprietary stuff. To me, with all its flaws, C#, Java, Scala, Python were the best, with goodness decreasing. I need to try F# as I feel I'd like it very much. Generally I believe in static type systems with proper generics support catching a lot of bugs up front, and are a pleasure to use, as my personal experience also shows this. You may not have enough experience with Java, or especially with C#, and I suspect that you may even find some of the greatest features there mere annoyances. After being an experienced C programmer and having same JS experience I can say JS has the much same problems. Bad design decisions initially. Then sticking to the legacy. Lack of expressive power. Writing correct code in JS or C is a struggle. For some reason both are overrepresented here on HN. Lack of proper module module system makes JS inferior to most modern languages (C#, Go, Rust,...). (npm solves some of it), and it could be continued for pages, but for a believer/zealot it wouldn't matter.
js_arkitekt 11y ago
Strongly recommend you get used to it. JavaScript is the universal language of the future. What can be written in JS will be written in JS. This is just a fact my man. Not because it's superior to other languages, it's simply because it is more cost effective to use. For example, at my current company, we are now using a Node Microservices architecture, Cassandra, Redis, Relay, GraphQL, and React. We're doing all our mobile using React Native. We were a Rails Angular shop before. All our engineers are now full-stack JS. We were able to get rid of 75% of our engineers using this stack...and then hire much higher quality engineers...JS experts. I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to work with this stack vs. something like Rails + Angular. And as for performance, it moves like nothing I've ever seen before. Warp speed brother. JS is the future my man. It's the only programming language I would invest my time in learning...i mean if you're concerned about job security and all. If not, I would spend my time learning Elixir and Phoenix. Also TensorFlow.

node.js and JavaScript in general make PHP look a well designed decent language and ecosystem. I cannot grok how can people chose this stack to create any product in it.

homogeneous 11y ago

What does this type of condescending bile add to the discussion? Thousands of companies successfully use PHP and node to write excellent software every day. If you despise node so fervently, why are you even engaging in a thread about the latest node release? Personally, I prefer ruby whenever its an option, but I've worked with node in the past and it's a decent platform that worked very well for the company (a commercial app servicing about 840k api and page requests per month). I just don't understand the hate.

aviraldg 11y ago
So negative opinions about '*' should never be expressed? JavaScript is a terrible language, and imho es2015 fixes a lot of broken stuff in the only backwards-compatible way it can. That said, I find the entire micropackage culture around npm and node, coupled with the hundreds of packages that typically constitute build scripts for even a smallish node project make me realize just how brittle it is compared to competing platforms.
- nilliams 11y ago
  There's a difference between being negative with specific complaints versus hyperbolic, drive-by FUD. Regarding your own complaints with Node. You're over-generalising. Nobody says you must use small modules. Larger libraries and frameworks exist. Same goes for build scripts. Also read this to get more context on small modules: https://github.com/sindresorhus/ama/issues/10 https://github.com/sindresorhus/ama/issues/10
- homogeneous 11y ago
  "Negative opinions" are fine. Heaping on condescending substance-free exclamations of ridicule in the middle of a thread about a specific issue regarding a platform you don't even use is just toxic arrogance. Your "micropackage" complaint is daft; if you don't like small modules don't use them. Why is the language to blame for free, open-source code that you don't have to use? How is this even a legitimate complaint? You don't need hundreds of packages for anything and you can find examples of this in any language.

PopsiclePete 11y ago

What language/eco-system isn't horrible, honestly? In some way? What's your "ideal" stack? Professional, I have used or am using C/C++, Python, Ruby, Javascript, some Java, some C#, Golang. Our of all of those the only one I don't really hate is Golang. In every other language/eco-system I can point to at least a dozen things that are awful. In Golang - maybe only 9. Node has NPM with a huge eco-system. It's fast. Javascript, if written correctly, can be a pleasure to use, IMO. And even if you can't use it idiomatically for some reason, you can use Cofeescript/Typescript or whatever that forces some sort of code structure/discipline. Node itself is decent if you understand how to ignore callback-pyramid-of-death with Promises and reactive-type programming.

kodfodrasz 11y ago
Not all suck, at least not as much as the one in the discussion... I have used most of those you listed, and some esoteric/legacy/proprietary stuff. To me, with all its flaws, C#, Java, Scala, Python were the best, with goodness decreasing. I need to try F# as I feel I'd like it very much. Generally I believe in static type systems with proper generics support catching a lot of bugs up front, and are a pleasure to use, as my personal experience also shows this. You may not have enough experience with Java, or especially with C#, and I suspect that you may even find some of the greatest features there mere annoyances. After being an experienced C programmer and having same JS experience I can say JS has the much same problems. Bad design decisions initially. Then sticking to the legacy. Lack of expressive power. Writing correct code in JS or C is a struggle. For some reason both are overrepresented here on HN. Lack of proper module module system makes JS inferior to most modern languages (C#, Go, Rust,...). (npm solves some of it), and it could be continued for pages, but for a believer/zealot it wouldn't matter.

js_arkitekt 11y ago

Strongly recommend you get used to it. JavaScript is the universal language of the future. What can be written in JS will be written in JS. This is just a fact my man. Not because it's superior to other languages, it's simply because it is more cost effective to use. For example, at my current company, we are now using a Node Microservices architecture, Cassandra, Redis, Relay, GraphQL, and React. We're doing all our mobile using React Native. We were a Rails Angular shop before. All our engineers are now full-stack JS. We were able to get rid of 75% of our engineers using this stack...and then hire much higher quality engineers...JS experts. I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to work with this stack vs. something like Rails + Angular. And as for performance, it moves like nothing I've ever seen before. Warp speed brother. JS is the future my man. It's the only programming language I would invest my time in learning...i mean if you're concerned about job security and all. If not, I would spend my time learning Elixir and Phoenix. Also TensorFlow.