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Well, it was intended as an "aside" comment, but it's still interesting, if controversial. I believe that there is an unbroken thread from the arrival of Americ
by nihonde 11y ago
Well, it was intended as an "aside" comment, but it's still interesting, if controversial. I believe that there is an unbroken thread from the arrival of American ships in Tokyo bay in 1853 to the current day. If you look at the official US history of that event (it's here: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/opening-to-japan https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/opening-to-ja...), it is characterized as a great opening of Japan to the world. In fact, it was in the pursuit of an arrogant imperialist notion of "Manifest Destiny" that Commodore Perry humiliated the Japanese and scared them into thinking that they needed to get into the expansion and conquest game in order to survive. It was a clear message from the Americans: we're coming in whether you like it or not.
Some call it a wake up call; others call it a provocation. Reasonable men and women can disagree about it. There's no doubt that it directly led to the lowest and highest points of Japanese civilization in the 20th century, though.
I think if people looked into the context of events with more curiosity, we would ultimately all benefit from the inquiry.
(And yes, I do believe that America and much of Europe are still pursuing an imperialist agenda. Call me crazy, if you want.)
- _Codemonkeyism 11y agoFollowing this line of thought I would assume America is chasing Europe on their imperialist fancy, Europe (modern) those of the British, the British chasing Romes fancies, Rome those of the Greeks, the Greeks those of the Egyptians (and Persians?) and the Egyptians those of Sumer. This probably goes on though noone left writings before the Sumerians (but my knowledge is fague here). I would also assume the invasions e.g. of Korea by Japanese before 1853 where not imperialist by intention.
- nihonde 11y agoGreat point about Toyotomi Hideyoshi's attempt to conquer Korean and China! I guess the legacy of the Edo period was a kind of reset on that ambition, because the country was closed and not looking for a fight. I would say it was actually the failure of the shogunate to stand up to Commodore Perry that ended Edo and kicked off the outward-looking Meiji. I'm no expert in this area, but I enjoy learning about it.
- jazzyk 11y agoWhat about the post-Meiji period? The attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 was just a misunderstood act of extending an olive branch?
- nihonde 11y ago(Again my views only.) I think it was a direct reaction to the aggression of 1853. It was preceded by posturing/maneuvering in the South Pacific if I'm not mistaken. To be clear, I don't think it was justified or proportionate, but I do think those events were closely linked in that Japan saw Americans as encroaching on their sovereignty and an imminent threat from the "East".
- SEJeff 11y agoMuch like the Norsemen were misunderstood by the Celts/Gaels in Ireland (whom they slaughtered)
- pessimizer 11y agoIn the cases of America and the British, and Rome and the Greeks, this was explicitly true. As for Europe, it's not a country and doesn't move as a unit. Different European countries were pioneers in imperialism, others were latecomers, others were mostly shut out and ended up doing more desperate, brutal invasions in less appealing places.
- nihonde 11y agoThere were so many peaks and valleys of European empires, it's easy to lump them into one. You're right, though——it's not fair to conflate Rome with Byzantium, Hapsburghs, Belgium, Netherlands, France, etc.
- AlgorithmicTime 11y agoYour notion of the opening of Japan as arrogant imperialism is as subjective and useless as America's notion of it as, well, the opening of Japan.