6 ms·

> [Nikhil]: Or educate men in society that these things are wrong. > [Winston]: You really think the problem is that men don't know the raping is wrong? > [Ch

by sridca 10y ago

> [Nikhil]: Or educate men in society that these things are wrong. > [Winston]: You really think the problem is that men don't know the raping is wrong? > [ChongLi]: Yes, actually. > [OldManJay]: Are you familiar with criminals who take responsibility for their actions? I've never heard of such a thing, so your implied conclusion seems idealistic Nikhil and ChongLi are doing nothing but regurgitate the faulty feminist narrative that they have fondly taken on to be common sense. Both American and Indian societies already teach its members that rape, murder, theft and other crimes are "wrong". This is called social conditioning, and is put into effect from childhood onwards. Social conditioning does not of course necessarily stop the criminals like Elliot Rodger (murder) and Mukesh Singh (rape) from conducting their crimes. The narrative of "Teach men not to rape," that these people ignorantly spit out, is based on the faulty premise that the said men have not been taught not to rape (and kill, maim, and so forth). > [ChongLi]: In an interview from jail[0], one of the men who participated in the 2012 gang rape and murder of Jyoti Singh blamed the victim for the attack[1]! [0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/1144346.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/1144346.... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape#Incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape#Incident With a little intelligence and sensitivity, it is not difficult to prober further into the underlying motivation of these criminals, and without understanding the underlying motivations you cannot effect change. Here's a clue: Mukesh Singh (one of the perpetrator of the Delhi gang rape event) had this to say in that interview: "A decent girl won’t roam around at nine o’clock at night … Housework and housekeeping is for girls, not roaming in discos and bars at night doing indecent things, wearing indecent clothes.".

mahranch 10y ago
Your comment presumes an equal education (that rape is equally "bad"), it presumes that both cultures are taught the same thing. They are not. In fact, it is currently legal to rape your wife in India. http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/05/asia/marital-rape-india/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/05/asia/marital-rape-india/ Think about that for a moment. What kind of effect do you think that would have on their rape statistics? In the U.S, Marital Rape accounts for half of all reported rapes. In India, those rapes aren't even being reported because they're not illegal.
- sridca 10y ago
  Your comment does not address the key points in mine. There is no doubt that marital/ spousal rape needs to be criminalized. Criminalization, of course, is not going to entirely eliminate it - which brings me to the point I'm trying to make: when both social-conditioning and law-and-order have failed, what's the solution? Feminists, including Nikhil and ChongLi, advocate further explicit conditioning (which ain't gonna have much effect on the criminals who already care less about their own social conditioning). Without understanding the criminals' underlying motives, people wanting to effect change will only go around in circles. Where is the proof that the feminist approach works?
  - jarfil 10y ago
    Social conditioning has not failed. Right now it's telling men in several societies that "it's the right thing to rape your woman" since it's your property, and that "a woman needs to be protected by her owner-man in order not to get raped by other men" so raping her is not the rapist's fault, it's her owner's fault for not protecting her. This conditioning lets men with rape fantasies to explain everything else away and act them out with no perception of wrongdoing.
    - iofj 10y ago
      But how does that work with tolerance ? After all, several religions teach that that is in fact allowed, albeit with conditions. I think you won't quite find that in India raping women is "morally allowed", but merely that if certain rules are followed (relating to caste and the marital state and age of the woman and the men involved) it is ok. The culture does not put a blanket ok on the practice. For the other religion the rules are slightly different (and blatantly racist: essentially if a woman behaves like she's a member of that religion, she's safe, otherwise, go ahead), but rape (non-consensual sex) is definitely allowed. Since this is quite explicit in the holy books of both religions you will at the very least need to change the way these religions are taught if you want to really change the attitude. I think it's pretty clear that won't be considered being tolerant.
    - sridca 10y ago
chongli 10y ago
No, the problem is that people like you don't understand the difference between "Teach men not to rape" and what we do now, which is "Tell men not to rape" but "teach them that they can probably get away with it if they really want to". One is a set of words, forming a common narrative. The other is a set of actions and associated outcomes which contradict the narrative.
- sridca 10y ago
  I do understand the difference. Whereas for some reason you are persistently reluctant to acknowledge that what we do now (and have always done, and will always do) is, in fact, teach (with carrot and stick) and not tell. This is called social conditioning, and is not specific to one gender. Thus, no amount of blaming and finger-pointing is going to fix the issue unless the underlying motivations of the criminals are understood (and resolved to that effect). It really is that simple, and I fail to see why people make such a fuss about it.

by sridca 10y ago

mahranch 10y ago

Your comment presumes an equal education (that rape is equally "bad"), it presumes that both cultures are taught the same thing. They are not. In fact, it is currently legal to rape your wife in India. http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/05/asia/marital-rape-india/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/05/asia/marital-rape-india/ Think about that for a moment. What kind of effect do you think that would have on their rape statistics? In the U.S, Marital Rape accounts for half of all reported rapes. In India, those rapes aren't even being reported because they're not illegal.

sridca 10y ago
Your comment does not address the key points in mine. There is no doubt that marital/ spousal rape needs to be criminalized. Criminalization, of course, is not going to entirely eliminate it - which brings me to the point I'm trying to make: when both social-conditioning and law-and-order have failed, what's the solution? Feminists, including Nikhil and ChongLi, advocate further explicit conditioning (which ain't gonna have much effect on the criminals who already care less about their own social conditioning). Without understanding the criminals' underlying motives, people wanting to effect change will only go around in circles. Where is the proof that the feminist approach works?
- jarfil 10y ago
  Social conditioning has not failed. Right now it's telling men in several societies that "it's the right thing to rape your woman" since it's your property, and that "a woman needs to be protected by her owner-man in order not to get raped by other men" so raping her is not the rapist's fault, it's her owner's fault for not protecting her. This conditioning lets men with rape fantasies to explain everything else away and act them out with no perception of wrongdoing.
  - iofj 10y ago
    But how does that work with tolerance ? After all, several religions teach that that is in fact allowed, albeit with conditions. I think you won't quite find that in India raping women is "morally allowed", but merely that if certain rules are followed (relating to caste and the marital state and age of the woman and the men involved) it is ok. The culture does not put a blanket ok on the practice. For the other religion the rules are slightly different (and blatantly racist: essentially if a woman behaves like she's a member of that religion, she's safe, otherwise, go ahead), but rape (non-consensual sex) is definitely allowed. Since this is quite explicit in the holy books of both religions you will at the very least need to change the way these religions are taught if you want to really change the attitude. I think it's pretty clear that won't be considered being tolerant.
  - sridca 10y ago

chongli 10y ago

No, the problem is that people like you don't understand the difference between "Teach men not to rape" and what we do now, which is "Tell men not to rape" but "teach them that they can probably get away with it if they really want to". One is a set of words, forming a common narrative. The other is a set of actions and associated outcomes which contradict the narrative.

sridca 10y ago
I do understand the difference. Whereas for some reason you are persistently reluctant to acknowledge that what we do now (and have always done, and will always do) is, in fact, teach (with carrot and stick) and not tell. This is called social conditioning, and is not specific to one gender. Thus, no amount of blaming and finger-pointing is going to fix the issue unless the underlying motivations of the criminals are understood (and resolved to that effect). It really is that simple, and I fail to see why people make such a fuss about it.