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> I was just pointing out that "specifically to torture innocent people" was misleading and wrong. What are so-called 'black sites' set up for then, if not to

> I was just pointing out that "specifically to torture innocent people" was misleading and wrong. What are so-called 'black sites' set up for then, if not to torture people who have not been charged with let alone convicted of anything (ie, are innocent)?

ikeboy 10y ago
That word does not mean what you think it means. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/actual_innocence https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/actual_innocence >A finding of actual innocence, as that term has come to be used in federal habeas corpus jurisprudence, is not the equivalent of a finding of not guilty by a jury or by a court in a bench trial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence Innocent means that they didn't do anything legally wrong. Plenty of uncharged and unconvicted people have broken the law.
- hartpuff 10y ago
  > That word does not mean what you think it means. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/presumption_of_innocence https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/presumption_of_innocence One of the most sacred principles in the American criminal justice system, holding that a defendant is *innocent* until proven guilty. > Plenty of uncharged and unconvicted people have broken the law. I can't believe anyone would bother making such a fatuous point, to which the obvious response is simply: plenty of uncharged and unconvicted (and even convicted for that matter) people have not broken the law. Now can you answer the question you evaded in my last post: If stating that black sites are set up specifically to detain people without charge and torture them is "misleading", according to you, please explain what you believe the purpose of black sites is.
  - ikeboy 10y ago
    >I can't believe anyone would bother making such a fatuous point, to which the obvious response is simply: plenty of uncharged and unconvicted (and even convicted for that matter) people have not broken the law. Which is entirely irrelevant. Your claim was that innocent simply meant not found guilty, which is incorrect. There's a "presumption" of innocence: "innocence" means they actually didn't do it, and the law assumes they're in that state until proven otherwise. That doesn't mean everyone presumed innocent is innocent. >If stating that black sites are set up specifically to detain people without charge and torture them is "misleading", according to you, please explain what you believe the purpose of black sites is. I didn't say that. I specifically suggested you use "unconvicted", but if you'd used "uncharged" it would be fine. The word innocent is problematic for reasons I've explained.
    - hartpuff 10y ago
      > Your claim was that innocent simply meant not found guilty, which is incorrect. What I said is: "by definition, the people being tortured, not having been found guilty of any crime, are innocent". Which is not incorrect. I'm going to assume you know the principle of innocent until proven guilty, since it was in my last reply, quoted from Cornell's Law site. > the law assumes they're in that state until proven otherwise. That doesn't mean everyone presumed innocent is innocent. Okay, point me to a legal principle akin to innocent until proven guilty that instead states might not be innocent even if they have not been found guilty. > The word innocent is problematic for reasons I've explained. That it's problematic for you does not make it problematic.
      - ikeboy 10y ago
        I did above. See actually innocent. There's presumption of innocence and hen there's actually innocent.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]

ikeboy 10y ago

That word does not mean what you think it means. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/actual_innocence https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/actual_innocence >A finding of actual innocence, as that term has come to be used in federal habeas corpus jurisprudence, is not the equivalent of a finding of not guilty by a jury or by a court in a bench trial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence Innocent means that they didn't do anything legally wrong. Plenty of uncharged and unconvicted people have broken the law.

hartpuff 10y ago
> That word does not mean what you think it means. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/presumption_of_innocence https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/presumption_of_innocence One of the most sacred principles in the American criminal justice system, holding that a defendant is *innocent* until proven guilty. > Plenty of uncharged and unconvicted people have broken the law. I can't believe anyone would bother making such a fatuous point, to which the obvious response is simply: plenty of uncharged and unconvicted (and even convicted for that matter) people have not broken the law. Now can you answer the question you evaded in my last post: If stating that black sites are set up specifically to detain people without charge and torture them is "misleading", according to you, please explain what you believe the purpose of black sites is.
- ikeboy 10y ago
  >I can't believe anyone would bother making such a fatuous point, to which the obvious response is simply: plenty of uncharged and unconvicted (and even convicted for that matter) people have not broken the law. Which is entirely irrelevant. Your claim was that innocent simply meant not found guilty, which is incorrect. There's a "presumption" of innocence: "innocence" means they actually didn't do it, and the law assumes they're in that state until proven otherwise. That doesn't mean everyone presumed innocent is innocent. >If stating that black sites are set up specifically to detain people without charge and torture them is "misleading", according to you, please explain what you believe the purpose of black sites is. I didn't say that. I specifically suggested you use "unconvicted", but if you'd used "uncharged" it would be fine. The word innocent is problematic for reasons I've explained.
  - hartpuff 10y ago
    > Your claim was that innocent simply meant not found guilty, which is incorrect. What I said is: "by definition, the people being tortured, not having been found guilty of any crime, are innocent". Which is not incorrect. I'm going to assume you know the principle of innocent until proven guilty, since it was in my last reply, quoted from Cornell's Law site. > the law assumes they're in that state until proven otherwise. That doesn't mean everyone presumed innocent is innocent. Okay, point me to a legal principle akin to innocent until proven guilty that instead states might not be innocent even if they have not been found guilty. > The word innocent is problematic for reasons I've explained. That it's problematic for you does not make it problematic.
    - ikeboy 10y ago
      I did above. See actually innocent. There's presumption of innocence and hen there's actually innocent.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]