4 ms·

The Philosophy of Punk Rock Mathematics (interview)

51 points by MaysonL 17y ago

sarosh 17y ago
Wow, this link was awesome for introducing me to http://www.mathforprimates.com/ http://www.mathforprimates.com/ which was a fun set of podcasts! Thanks!
mnemonicsloth 17y ago
Startup hackers should know more game theory. You can explain a lot of human behavior as evolutionary adaptations to compete in partially-cooperative sex-selected games of incomplete information in groups of around 100 players. For example, why we care about karma on social networking sites, why some employers require you to wear a suit even though everyone concerned thinks suits are stupid, why religions are tenacious, why nobody trusts atheists, why virtually every mid-sized American city has at least one completely uneconomical skyscraper in what passes for "downtown" and why it's always owned by a bank or insurance company... the list goes on and on.
J3L2404 17y ago
1) People use the average Joe’s poor mathematics as a way to control, exploit, and numerically fuck him over. 2) Mathematics is the subject in which, regardless of what the authorities tell you is true, you can verify every last iota of truth, with a minimum of equipment. Although seldom noticed, mathematics is one of the few, maybe the only, subject not open to interpretation.
- imok20 17y ago
  Ah, don't we wish. There's this thing called an "Axiom" that is, ruefully, generally, arbitrary. Definitions, too. e.g. Some say the set of natural numbers contain 0, some say it doesn't. Granted, the kind of math being discussed here isn't open to much interpretation, but I thought I'd note it.
  - hexis 17y ago
    Rarely is a person screwed by a controversial axiom.
    - thomaspaine 17y ago
      You'd be surprised. The first thing that comes to mind is modern macro-economic forecasting, which is built on a host of controversial axioms. These forecasts are little better than Roman augury, and one could argue they are actually a net negative because they give us the false pretense of knowledge. Using game theory to make predictions, expected utility theory, etc the list goes on and on (sorry to pick on economics, I'm sure there are plenty of other fields that suffer the same problems). Just look at some of the assumptions made by the financial engineers who caused the recent financial crisis if want your head to explode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black–Scholes#Model_assumptions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black–Scholes#Model_assumptions
      - hexis 17y ago
        You and I might be using the word "axiom" differently.
        thomaspaine 17y ago
        All right, in the black-scholes example I admit that those are not axioms in the traditional sense. Maybe the expected utility axioms would be a better example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_utility_hypothesis#von_Neumann-Morgenstern_formulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_utility_hypothesis#von...
      - roundsquare 17y ago
        Applied math != math. In fact, the problem with the axioms your talking about isn't that the math is wrong, its that the axioms aren't "true" of the real world. Not that what you are saying isn't important, but you are talking about two completely different things. I mean, compare the axiom of choice to "people maximize expected utility." One of them is about the pillars of mathematics/logic, one is about how people act.
scotty79 17y ago
I checked another project of that guy mentioned in the interview: http://www.superstructgame.org/ http://www.superstructgame.org/ and I noticed that one of the movies he uses ("Outlaw Planet") has been pulled down by youtube due to copyright complaint from Stanford University. I didn't know universities are so evil that they sabotage projects of their graduates on basis of copyright.

51 points by MaysonL 17y ago

Wow, this link was awesome for introducing me to http://www.mathforprimates.com/ http://www.mathforprimates.com/ which was a fun set of podcasts! Thanks!

mnemonicsloth 17y ago

Startup hackers should know more game theory. You can explain a lot of human behavior as evolutionary adaptations to compete in partially-cooperative sex-selected games of incomplete information in groups of around 100 players. For example, why we care about karma on social networking sites, why some employers require you to wear a suit even though everyone concerned thinks suits are stupid, why religions are tenacious, why nobody trusts atheists, why virtually every mid-sized American city has at least one completely uneconomical skyscraper in what passes for "downtown" and why it's always owned by a bank or insurance company... the list goes on and on.

J3L2404 17y ago

1) People use the average Joe’s poor mathematics as a way to control, exploit, and numerically fuck him over. 2) Mathematics is the subject in which, regardless of what the authorities tell you is true, you can verify every last iota of truth, with a minimum of equipment. Although seldom noticed, mathematics is one of the few, maybe the only, subject not open to interpretation.

imok20 17y ago
Ah, don't we wish. There's this thing called an "Axiom" that is, ruefully, generally, arbitrary. Definitions, too. e.g. Some say the set of natural numbers contain 0, some say it doesn't. Granted, the kind of math being discussed here isn't open to much interpretation, but I thought I'd note it.
- hexis 17y ago
  Rarely is a person screwed by a controversial axiom.
  - thomaspaine 17y ago
    You'd be surprised. The first thing that comes to mind is modern macro-economic forecasting, which is built on a host of controversial axioms. These forecasts are little better than Roman augury, and one could argue they are actually a net negative because they give us the false pretense of knowledge. Using game theory to make predictions, expected utility theory, etc the list goes on and on (sorry to pick on economics, I'm sure there are plenty of other fields that suffer the same problems). Just look at some of the assumptions made by the financial engineers who caused the recent financial crisis if want your head to explode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black–Scholes#Model_assumptions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black–Scholes#Model_assumptions
    - hexis 17y ago
      You and I might be using the word "axiom" differently.
      - thomaspaine 17y ago
        All right, in the black-scholes example I admit that those are not axioms in the traditional sense. Maybe the expected utility axioms would be a better example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_utility_hypothesis#von_Neumann-Morgenstern_formulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_utility_hypothesis#von...
    - roundsquare 17y ago
      Applied math != math. In fact, the problem with the axioms your talking about isn't that the math is wrong, its that the axioms aren't "true" of the real world. Not that what you are saying isn't important, but you are talking about two completely different things. I mean, compare the axiom of choice to "people maximize expected utility." One of them is about the pillars of mathematics/logic, one is about how people act.

scotty79 17y ago

I checked another project of that guy mentioned in the interview: http://www.superstructgame.org/ http://www.superstructgame.org/ and I noticed that one of the movies he uses ("Outlaw Planet") has been pulled down by youtube due to copyright complaint from Stanford University. I didn't know universities are so evil that they sabotage projects of their graduates on basis of copyright.