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> misunderstand the term in such spectacular ways Who could have guessed that identifying and singling out a particular race for correction and self-abasement

> misunderstand the term in such spectacular ways Who could have guessed that identifying and singling out a particular race for correction and self-abasement would entail some push-back? [1] > This just isn't working. Actually, I think it is working as intended. A thriving industry has arisen around the elimination of "white privilege". The term has served that industry well as marketing. > I'm a firm believer in the existence of this thing we currently call "white privilege." Are you a firm believer of "Han privilege" in China? Are you a firm believer of "Japanese privilege" in Japan? Are you a firm believer in "Jewish privilege" in Israel? If so, that might assist you in your search for better language. > basic rights we take for granted We have hundreds of years of high-quality race-neutral rights language to pick from. Why was that language eschewed? [1] I'm trying to cut down on snark in my diet but failed. Mea culpa.

JohnBooty 10y ago
We have hundreds of years of high-quality race-neutral rights language to pick from. Why was that language eschewed? Do we have equality today in America? The answer to that might assist you in your search for understanding. Who could have guessed that identifying and singling out a particular race for correction and self-abasement would entail some push-back? As a white male in America, I just don't feel that recognizing my privileges makes me feel abased or persecuted or anything like that. I don't feel the need to push back. Why does it make you feel that way? Are you a firm believer of "Han privilege" in China? Are you a firm believer of "Japanese privilege" in Japan? Are you a firm believer in "Jewish privilege" in Israel? Yeah absolutely! There are privileged groups everywhere. It's not always white people. If your understanding of "white privilege" is that it's a belief that white people magically have it easy all of the time, everywhere on planet Earth, I'm happy to let you know that literally nobody is saying that. If your point is that we should be simply talking about "privilege" and not "white privilege" or other privilege, I understand the sentiment. I think that would be a naive and ineffective approach because on any practical level we can't discuss privilege without also discussing the source of that privilege.
- AudaIbuTayi 10y ago
  > Do we have equality today in America? You're being parochial. This is an international forum. Do "we" have equality in Israel? In China? In Saudi Arabia? > I don't feel the need to push back. You've stated that the phrase "white privilege" is resulting in "spectacular" misunderstanding. I'm agreeing that it is a fatally fraught phrase. I wish you luck in replacing it (if that's what you meant by "we need better language"). > Why does it make you feel that way? Signaling that _you_ are thinking while _they_ are emoting is a bad-faith tell. > I think that would be a naive and ineffective approach [simply talking about "privilege" and not "white privilege" or other privilege] So where does that leave your search for better language?
  - JohnBooty 10y ago
    You're being parochial. This is an international forum. Do "we" have equality in Israel? In China? In Saudi Arabia? If you wanted to talk about those things, I wouldn't chide you for being parochial. I would just see that you are... discussing those specific things, particularly if you were being as clear about it as I was. "Oh," I'd think. "There's a discussion that doesn't involve me. Perhaps I shouldn't attempt to be clever in it." I'm not sure if English is your native language but you should understand that "we" does not necessarily mean "every human." It can have different meanings depending on context. For example, if I say "My family enjoys dinner together. Tonight, we enjoyed spaghetti" then in this case it's clear from context that "we" means "my family." Similar, if I say "In America [...] we" then it is also very clear that I'm talking about America. I hope this makes your future encounters with English more comprehendable for you. Signaling that _you_ are thinking while _they_ are emoting is a bad-faith tell. I specifically said I "don't feel" the need to push back, and that you apparently do "feel" it. To hell with signaling: you're ignoring the thing I literally said in direct and unambiguous language. Now that's bad faith. I wish you luck in replacing it Hey thanks! Did you have anything constructive to say here? I don't see anything of the sort, just a bunch of misguided attempts at pedantry that don't hold any water whatsoever. I mean, I get it: you think that talking about particular kinds of privilege is bad. I'm not going to intentionally misstate what you said, or be ineffectively pedantic, because that's neither clever nor helpful. So where does that leave your search for better language? Discouraged, because there are an awful lot of people like you who want to turn things into a pedantic debate (dispute being hilariously underequipped to do so; I suggest you stay in your lane) instead of working towards any kind of awareness or solution whatsoever.

JohnBooty 10y ago

We have hundreds of years of high-quality race-neutral rights language to pick from. Why was that language eschewed? Do we have equality today in America? The answer to that might assist you in your search for understanding. Who could have guessed that identifying and singling out a particular race for correction and self-abasement would entail some push-back? As a white male in America, I just don't feel that recognizing my privileges makes me feel abased or persecuted or anything like that. I don't feel the need to push back. Why does it make you feel that way? Are you a firm believer of "Han privilege" in China? Are you a firm believer of "Japanese privilege" in Japan? Are you a firm believer in "Jewish privilege" in Israel? Yeah absolutely! There are privileged groups everywhere. It's not always white people. If your understanding of "white privilege" is that it's a belief that white people magically have it easy all of the time, everywhere on planet Earth, I'm happy to let you know that literally nobody is saying that. If your point is that we should be simply talking about "privilege" and not "white privilege" or other privilege, I understand the sentiment. I think that would be a naive and ineffective approach because on any practical level we can't discuss privilege without also discussing the source of that privilege.

AudaIbuTayi 10y ago
> Do we have equality today in America? You're being parochial. This is an international forum. Do "we" have equality in Israel? In China? In Saudi Arabia? > I don't feel the need to push back. You've stated that the phrase "white privilege" is resulting in "spectacular" misunderstanding. I'm agreeing that it is a fatally fraught phrase. I wish you luck in replacing it (if that's what you meant by "we need better language"). > Why does it make you feel that way? Signaling that _you_ are thinking while _they_ are emoting is a bad-faith tell. > I think that would be a naive and ineffective approach [simply talking about "privilege" and not "white privilege" or other privilege] So where does that leave your search for better language?
- JohnBooty 10y ago
  You're being parochial. This is an international forum. Do "we" have equality in Israel? In China? In Saudi Arabia? If you wanted to talk about those things, I wouldn't chide you for being parochial. I would just see that you are... discussing those specific things, particularly if you were being as clear about it as I was. "Oh," I'd think. "There's a discussion that doesn't involve me. Perhaps I shouldn't attempt to be clever in it." I'm not sure if English is your native language but you should understand that "we" does not necessarily mean "every human." It can have different meanings depending on context. For example, if I say "My family enjoys dinner together. Tonight, we enjoyed spaghetti" then in this case it's clear from context that "we" means "my family." Similar, if I say "In America [...] we" then it is also very clear that I'm talking about America. I hope this makes your future encounters with English more comprehendable for you. Signaling that _you_ are thinking while _they_ are emoting is a bad-faith tell. I specifically said I "don't feel" the need to push back, and that you apparently do "feel" it. To hell with signaling: you're ignoring the thing I literally said in direct and unambiguous language. Now that's bad faith. I wish you luck in replacing it Hey thanks! Did you have anything constructive to say here? I don't see anything of the sort, just a bunch of misguided attempts at pedantry that don't hold any water whatsoever. I mean, I get it: you think that talking about particular kinds of privilege is bad. I'm not going to intentionally misstate what you said, or be ineffectively pedantic, because that's neither clever nor helpful. So where does that leave your search for better language? Discouraged, because there are an awful lot of people like you who want to turn things into a pedantic debate (dispute being hilariously underequipped to do so; I suggest you stay in your lane) instead of working towards any kind of awareness or solution whatsoever.