4 ms·

The tradeoff isn't worth it for me. I wouldn't feel _morally_ safe knowing the state is using such draconian measures to make me feel physically safe—even less

The tradeoff isn't worth it for me. I wouldn't feel _morally_ safe knowing the state is using such draconian measures to make me feel physically safe—even less so to ensure that my property is safe. If somebody vandalized my car and got some kind of caning or other torture based sentence I'd pray the court for leniency. He damaged a replaceable physical object and the state proposes to injure and traumatize him? I couldn't live in a place that protects my property and buys my physical safety at that cost.

greggman 11y ago
You say that but have you actually experienced it? That's my point. I never thought the USA was an unsafe place. Until spent 7 years in Japan and 6 months in SG. Before I lived in those places I would have had your opinion. Now that I have I can't live in the USA anymore. It feels like a shit hole 3rd world country. Intellectually knowing the trade offs is different than actually feeling and experiencing them. I'm sure you believe that even after experiencing a life of feeling safe at all times you'd still choose unsafe but freer but I suspect you're discounting the effect it would have on you to actually have the experience. I'm not saying you'd make my choice but I am saying you'd at least see the trade off in a different light. Being free from certain worries is also a form of freedom. You're free to criticize the government. I'm free to let my 8yr kids explore the city without worrying they'll come to any harm
- gerbilly 11y ago
  Nope I haven't experienced it. I don't feel unsafe in the US either, in the places you named, at all hours of the night. I'm not trying to be glib, but if I had to go out and personally experience everything someone recommends, it might take me a long time. I'm glad you feel safe there, I just wouldn't want it for myself on principle.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
jfoster 11y ago
It's okay if it's not worth it for you, but do you think there could be any significantly sized group of people that it could be worth it for? If so, perhaps there is good reason for Singapore to have this approach. The alternative is trying to force everyone in the world to live the way you want to. You don't have to want to live in Singapore, but you should accept that other people might want to.
- gerbilly 11y ago
  But did they really chose to live that way or did the government institutions just kind of lag behind the economic progress? Economic progress excuses many sins. You see a similar thing in China. Human rights abuses are frequently minimized as long as there is economic growth. Many cultures used torture and hanging and all sorts of extreme and cruel punishments. Even the paragons of peaceful resistance did: the Tibetans. But many cultures chose to outgrow such practices. I'd argue that: 1) The Singapore people never _chose_ to live this way, that it's an accident of history, and that economic growth keeps most people from complaining about it. 2) given the control of the press and the draconian government they couldn't easily chose to live differently now. We should be wary of imitating them, because it would be very hard to dismantle a system like that once it has been installed.

greggman 11y ago

You say that but have you actually experienced it? That's my point. I never thought the USA was an unsafe place. Until spent 7 years in Japan and 6 months in SG. Before I lived in those places I would have had your opinion. Now that I have I can't live in the USA anymore. It feels like a shit hole 3rd world country. Intellectually knowing the trade offs is different than actually feeling and experiencing them. I'm sure you believe that even after experiencing a life of feeling safe at all times you'd still choose unsafe but freer but I suspect you're discounting the effect it would have on you to actually have the experience. I'm not saying you'd make my choice but I am saying you'd at least see the trade off in a different light. Being free from certain worries is also a form of freedom. You're free to criticize the government. I'm free to let my 8yr kids explore the city without worrying they'll come to any harm

gerbilly 11y ago
Nope I haven't experienced it. I don't feel unsafe in the US either, in the places you named, at all hours of the night. I'm not trying to be glib, but if I had to go out and personally experience everything someone recommends, it might take me a long time. I'm glad you feel safe there, I just wouldn't want it for myself on principle.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

jfoster 11y ago

It's okay if it's not worth it for you, but do you think there could be any significantly sized group of people that it could be worth it for? If so, perhaps there is good reason for Singapore to have this approach. The alternative is trying to force everyone in the world to live the way you want to. You don't have to want to live in Singapore, but you should accept that other people might want to.

gerbilly 11y ago
But did they really chose to live that way or did the government institutions just kind of lag behind the economic progress? Economic progress excuses many sins. You see a similar thing in China. Human rights abuses are frequently minimized as long as there is economic growth. Many cultures used torture and hanging and all sorts of extreme and cruel punishments. Even the paragons of peaceful resistance did: the Tibetans. But many cultures chose to outgrow such practices. I'd argue that: 1) The Singapore people never _chose_ to live this way, that it's an accident of history, and that economic growth keeps most people from complaining about it. 2) given the control of the press and the draconian government they couldn't easily chose to live differently now. We should be wary of imitating them, because it would be very hard to dismantle a system like that once it has been installed.