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Have you actually lived in Singapore? I don't know where you're from. I'm from the USA. And while I don't like everything SG does, having lived there I see trad

Have you actually lived in Singapore? I don't know where you're from. I'm from the USA. And while I don't like everything SG does, having lived there I see trade offs. In the USA I get freedom of speech (+). In exchange I get mugged on the streets, cars stolen, cars broken into, poverty all over, always having to be on my guard. Then I go live in Singapore where I hate that the internet is filtered, there's no porn, but in exchange I always feel safe. Safe to walk pretty much anywhere at any time day or night. It's a nice feeling. For many people who experience it for a few years it's hard to go back to a place where you always have to look over your shoulder like SF, LA, NYC.

gerbilly 11y ago
The tradeoff isn't worth it for me. I wouldn't feel _morally_ safe knowing the state is using such draconian measures to make me feel physically safe—even less so to ensure that my property is safe. If somebody vandalized my car and got some kind of caning or other torture based sentence I'd pray the court for leniency. He damaged a replaceable physical object and the state proposes to injure and traumatize him? I couldn't live in a place that protects my property and buys my physical safety at that cost.
- greggman 11y ago
  You say that but have you actually experienced it? That's my point. I never thought the USA was an unsafe place. Until spent 7 years in Japan and 6 months in SG. Before I lived in those places I would have had your opinion. Now that I have I can't live in the USA anymore. It feels like a shit hole 3rd world country. Intellectually knowing the trade offs is different than actually feeling and experiencing them. I'm sure you believe that even after experiencing a life of feeling safe at all times you'd still choose unsafe but freer but I suspect you're discounting the effect it would have on you to actually have the experience. I'm not saying you'd make my choice but I am saying you'd at least see the trade off in a different light. Being free from certain worries is also a form of freedom. You're free to criticize the government. I'm free to let my 8yr kids explore the city without worrying they'll come to any harm
  - gerbilly 11y ago
    Nope I haven't experienced it. I don't feel unsafe in the US either, in the places you named, at all hours of the night. I'm not trying to be glib, but if I had to go out and personally experience everything someone recommends, it might take me a long time. I'm glad you feel safe there, I just wouldn't want it for myself on principle.
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- jfoster 11y ago
  It's okay if it's not worth it for you, but do you think there could be any significantly sized group of people that it could be worth it for? If so, perhaps there is good reason for Singapore to have this approach. The alternative is trying to force everyone in the world to live the way you want to. You don't have to want to live in Singapore, but you should accept that other people might want to.
  - gerbilly 11y ago
    But did they really chose to live that way or did the government institutions just kind of lag behind the economic progress? Economic progress excuses many sins. You see a similar thing in China. Human rights abuses are frequently minimized as long as there is economic growth. Many cultures used torture and hanging and all sorts of extreme and cruel punishments. Even the paragons of peaceful resistance did: the Tibetans. But many cultures chose to outgrow such practices. I'd argue that: 1) The Singapore people never _chose_ to live this way, that it's an accident of history, and that economic growth keeps most people from complaining about it. 2) given the control of the press and the draconian government they couldn't easily chose to live differently now. We should be wary of imitating them, because it would be very hard to dismantle a system like that once it has been installed.
nickpsecurity 11y ago
I live in a murder capital that's in top 10 of violent crime. I rarely deal with a mugging and basic methods let me avoid it. Pre-9/11, I didn't worry about secret police putting the FBI on me for being a dissenter or CIA kidnapping me at an airport then torturing me. That kind of stuff happens here now but very limited. Also happens in Singapore with zero protections, accountability, or even media reporting far as people tell me. We're over here doing all kinds of unpopular things to try to get us privacy, better healthcare, better this, better that. We have the opportunity with 90+% too apathetic to join. (sighs) Over there, you only have the opportunity to do what their regime of specific ideology allows you to do. If you don't, they will do more than give you outvote you, cite you, or try you in court. You won't stand a chance. Leads me to believe you must live a very predictable, non-threatening-to-regime lifestyle to be safe over there. Activists I know in Singapore do not feel safe. :)
skrause 11y ago
In Germany I get unfiltered internet, freedom of speech and still always feel safe. It doesn't really have to be a choice between freedom and safety, both together is possible.
- vasilipupkin 11y ago
  According to Wikipedia, in 2010 almost 6 million crimes were committed in Germany. Don't know the equivalent number per capita in Singapore, but I'm guessing it's a lot lower. In fact ( if we exclude homicides ), I believe that's an even worse crime rate than US
  - skrause 11y ago
    The total number of reported crimes means nothing, there might just be a whole lot of minor crimes reported. It's mainly the number of crimes with your personal safety affected which make you feel unsafe.

gerbilly 11y ago

The tradeoff isn't worth it for me. I wouldn't feel _morally_ safe knowing the state is using such draconian measures to make me feel physically safe—even less so to ensure that my property is safe. If somebody vandalized my car and got some kind of caning or other torture based sentence I'd pray the court for leniency. He damaged a replaceable physical object and the state proposes to injure and traumatize him? I couldn't live in a place that protects my property and buys my physical safety at that cost.

greggman 11y ago
You say that but have you actually experienced it? That's my point. I never thought the USA was an unsafe place. Until spent 7 years in Japan and 6 months in SG. Before I lived in those places I would have had your opinion. Now that I have I can't live in the USA anymore. It feels like a shit hole 3rd world country. Intellectually knowing the trade offs is different than actually feeling and experiencing them. I'm sure you believe that even after experiencing a life of feeling safe at all times you'd still choose unsafe but freer but I suspect you're discounting the effect it would have on you to actually have the experience. I'm not saying you'd make my choice but I am saying you'd at least see the trade off in a different light. Being free from certain worries is also a form of freedom. You're free to criticize the government. I'm free to let my 8yr kids explore the city without worrying they'll come to any harm
- gerbilly 11y ago
  Nope I haven't experienced it. I don't feel unsafe in the US either, in the places you named, at all hours of the night. I'm not trying to be glib, but if I had to go out and personally experience everything someone recommends, it might take me a long time. I'm glad you feel safe there, I just wouldn't want it for myself on principle.
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jfoster 11y ago
It's okay if it's not worth it for you, but do you think there could be any significantly sized group of people that it could be worth it for? If so, perhaps there is good reason for Singapore to have this approach. The alternative is trying to force everyone in the world to live the way you want to. You don't have to want to live in Singapore, but you should accept that other people might want to.
- gerbilly 11y ago
  But did they really chose to live that way or did the government institutions just kind of lag behind the economic progress? Economic progress excuses many sins. You see a similar thing in China. Human rights abuses are frequently minimized as long as there is economic growth. Many cultures used torture and hanging and all sorts of extreme and cruel punishments. Even the paragons of peaceful resistance did: the Tibetans. But many cultures chose to outgrow such practices. I'd argue that: 1) The Singapore people never _chose_ to live this way, that it's an accident of history, and that economic growth keeps most people from complaining about it. 2) given the control of the press and the draconian government they couldn't easily chose to live differently now. We should be wary of imitating them, because it would be very hard to dismantle a system like that once it has been installed.

nickpsecurity 11y ago

I live in a murder capital that's in top 10 of violent crime. I rarely deal with a mugging and basic methods let me avoid it. Pre-9/11, I didn't worry about secret police putting the FBI on me for being a dissenter or CIA kidnapping me at an airport then torturing me. That kind of stuff happens here now but very limited. Also happens in Singapore with zero protections, accountability, or even media reporting far as people tell me. We're over here doing all kinds of unpopular things to try to get us privacy, better healthcare, better this, better that. We have the opportunity with 90+% too apathetic to join. (sighs) Over there, you only have the opportunity to do what their regime of specific ideology allows you to do. If you don't, they will do more than give you outvote you, cite you, or try you in court. You won't stand a chance. Leads me to believe you must live a very predictable, non-threatening-to-regime lifestyle to be safe over there. Activists I know in Singapore do not feel safe. :)

skrause 11y ago

In Germany I get unfiltered internet, freedom of speech and still always feel safe. It doesn't really have to be a choice between freedom and safety, both together is possible.

vasilipupkin 11y ago
According to Wikipedia, in 2010 almost 6 million crimes were committed in Germany. Don't know the equivalent number per capita in Singapore, but I'm guessing it's a lot lower. In fact ( if we exclude homicides ), I believe that's an even worse crime rate than US
- skrause 11y ago
  The total number of reported crimes means nothing, there might just be a whole lot of minor crimes reported. It's mainly the number of crimes with your personal safety affected which make you feel unsafe.