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> It jsut paints such a simplistic view of the world, not a real one, but one that is useful for rhetoric. Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway. We're all born

by maratd 10y ago

> It jsut paints such a simplistic view of the world, not a real one, but one that is useful for rhetoric. Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway. We're all born with various advantages and disadvantages, none of which we have any control over. Just as an example, some people are better looking than others ... and those people tend to have an advantage, because they're better looking. They can get better jobs, better pay, etc. all because of the way they look. So what? The rest of us just have to work a bit harder. That's how life works. Stop whining. No, life isn't fair. Deal with it.

saiya-jin 10y ago
seeing this upvoted gives me back a bit of hope in HN crowd
fucking_tragedy 10y ago
> Deal with it. Just like the other arbitrary things that can needlessly hold a person or group of people back, if it can be fixed why not fix it? What's wrong with dealing with it that way? You seem to suggest to that people keep quiet, keep their head down and not rock the boat. That's a defeatist attitude and suggests that you don't think any effort should be spent trying to correct something that's broken in the world.
- crusso 10y ago
  "if it can be fixed why not fix it?" If the fix is "lay guilt upon and attempt to disadvantage all people of a certain skin color because some of that skin color have had an easier time in life", then it doesn't seem like much of a fix, does it? Racism and bigotry need to be wrong in all cases or the moral authority against them is diminished.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Except no one is talking about disadvantaging people of a certain skin color (white). We're talking about trying to help bring everyone else up to the same level.
    - crusso 10y ago
      As someone with white children applying for college, I can say without question that skin color is used to disadvantage certain people.
      - st3v3r 10y ago
        No, it isn't. You're not getting the advantage you used to have. That's different.
- maratd 10y ago
  > if it can be fixed why not fix it? Because your cure is worse than the disease. > you don't think any effort should be spent trying to correct something that's broken in the world. I think racism is bad. I think it's bad in all circumstances because it corrupts our meritocratic society. Using racism to fix racism is dumb. Because racism is bad in all circumstances.
  - danenania 10y ago
    Our meritocratic society? Which planet are you from? Here on earth, we have no meritocratic society, but we do have a lot of people who confuse the advantages of their birth + not dropping the ball with pure merit. 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 per day. Do you not believe that among those billions of people, there could be many who are just as smart and hardworking as you, but have no access to the physical, social, and cultural capital they need to rise above subsistence living? If your so-called meritocracy only applies to 10% of the earth's population, it isn't much of one.
    - nugget 10y ago
      It's interesting to note that increasing inequality within the US has been a byproduct of decreasing inequality world wide, as formerly impoverished frontier economies were allowed to compete against the American lower and lower middle working classes. This point always seems to get lost in the discussion.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Anyone who thinks society is actually meritocratic is deluding themselves. And no one is using racism to fix racism. Only someone who is desperately clinging to that advantage they have for being white would say that.
JohnBooty 10y ago
> Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway. There's no part of examining privilege that says race is the only facet of one's existence soooooo at least you don't disagree with it there. To even make a statement like that is like getting mad at "breast cancer awareness" because "it's not the only kind of cancer." I can't emphasize enough that literally nobody is claiming that race is the only facet of one's existence.
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  The only facet that matters, then? Or, combined with gender the only facets that matter or let you be a part of the discussion? I've been told off + blocked on twitter for chiming in about something I have intimate personal experience with, because white male. Or the semi-famous video "you're a WHITE MALE!" (language warning) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0diJNybk0Mw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0diJNybk0Mw
  - wrsh07 10y ago
    Of course it's not the only facet that matters. And I think that minorities want white males to be a part of the discussion about race. However, oftentimes white males say the same exact things. You can kind of enumerate them, "Not all white males," "White people can be poor," "Hey, you're black, can you explain...?" etc. Many answers to these questions can be found here: http://theteej.tumblr.com/post/122334039549/hi-white-friends-things-have-been-tense-lately http://theteej.tumblr.com/post/122334039549/hi-white-friends... I don't expect you to read it. But if you want to understand why people get frustrated when you chime in about something it's probably because they've heard the thing that you're saying a gazillion times already and are tired of responding to it. They don't owe you a response. Finally, I'll reference John Green and say that if you're doing something that multiple people tell you is offensive or bothersome: Stop doing it.
    - BurningFrog 10y ago
      > Finally, I'll reference John Green and say that if you're doing something that multiple people tell you is offensive or bothersome: Stop doing it. Does that include people telling you Social Justice rhetoric is offensive or bothersome?
thedz 10y ago
> That's how life works. Stop whining. No, life isn't fair. Deal with it. I realize that the context is different in the U.S. vs the rest of the world, but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Or to segregated blacks in the 1900s? Or to women who couldn't vote? Or, to use a more modern example, to Muslims who are facing prejudice and persecution because of the actions of extremists? Throughout history, "stop whining, deal with it" has tended to be the refrain of the privileged.
- mhurron 10y ago
  Dealing with it can include working toward change. Screaming 'White Privilege' is just complaining without action.
  - sbov 10y ago
    Making people aware of the problem and recommending they help with it is part of working towards change. Which is all the OP really did.
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  The first three are examples of government regulations explicitly favoring some groups over others. That is fundamentally different from a society with legal equality for all individuals. Yes, some groups will be more popular than others. It's hard to see how that can ever be avoided. Of course, if you are a slave, you do really need to deal with that situation as best as you can. Does anyone dispute that?
- maratd 10y ago
  > but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Yes, I would say exactly that. I would tell them to accept their situation, not whine about it, then break free and run to the north. Many did just that. When they got to the north, I would encourage them to work hard and make a better life for themselves through hard work. Many did just that. Yes, they would need to work harder than insert privileged example here to have a good life. Because they're starting from zero. And that's fine. Because that's life. Many of us start from zero or worse. Many of us were hurt or are being hurt by someone's unjust actions. That doesn't mean you try to rig the system. We are born with thousands of disadvantages and thousands of advantages. You simply can't engineer a system that will compensate for all of that to create some sort of utopia. We tried that before. It didn't go so well.
st3v3r 10y ago
This is an abhorrent view to take. "I got mine, so fuck all of you."

by maratd 10y ago

saiya-jin 10y ago

seeing this upvoted gives me back a bit of hope in HN crowd

fucking_tragedy 10y ago

> Deal with it. Just like the other arbitrary things that can needlessly hold a person or group of people back, if it can be fixed why not fix it? What's wrong with dealing with it that way? You seem to suggest to that people keep quiet, keep their head down and not rock the boat. That's a defeatist attitude and suggests that you don't think any effort should be spent trying to correct something that's broken in the world.

crusso 10y ago
"if it can be fixed why not fix it?" If the fix is "lay guilt upon and attempt to disadvantage all people of a certain skin color because some of that skin color have had an easier time in life", then it doesn't seem like much of a fix, does it? Racism and bigotry need to be wrong in all cases or the moral authority against them is diminished.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Except no one is talking about disadvantaging people of a certain skin color (white). We're talking about trying to help bring everyone else up to the same level.
  - crusso 10y ago
    As someone with white children applying for college, I can say without question that skin color is used to disadvantage certain people.
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      No, it isn't. You're not getting the advantage you used to have. That's different.
maratd 10y ago
> if it can be fixed why not fix it? Because your cure is worse than the disease. > you don't think any effort should be spent trying to correct something that's broken in the world. I think racism is bad. I think it's bad in all circumstances because it corrupts our meritocratic society. Using racism to fix racism is dumb. Because racism is bad in all circumstances.
- danenania 10y ago
  Our meritocratic society? Which planet are you from? Here on earth, we have no meritocratic society, but we do have a lot of people who confuse the advantages of their birth + not dropping the ball with pure merit. 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 per day. Do you not believe that among those billions of people, there could be many who are just as smart and hardworking as you, but have no access to the physical, social, and cultural capital they need to rise above subsistence living? If your so-called meritocracy only applies to 10% of the earth's population, it isn't much of one.
  - nugget 10y ago
    It's interesting to note that increasing inequality within the US has been a byproduct of decreasing inequality world wide, as formerly impoverished frontier economies were allowed to compete against the American lower and lower middle working classes. This point always seems to get lost in the discussion.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Anyone who thinks society is actually meritocratic is deluding themselves. And no one is using racism to fix racism. Only someone who is desperately clinging to that advantage they have for being white would say that.

JohnBooty 10y ago

> Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway. There's no part of examining privilege that says race is the only facet of one's existence soooooo at least you don't disagree with it there. To even make a statement like that is like getting mad at "breast cancer awareness" because "it's not the only kind of cancer." I can't emphasize enough that literally nobody is claiming that race is the only facet of one's existence.

Domenic_S 10y ago
The only facet that matters, then? Or, combined with gender the only facets that matter or let you be a part of the discussion? I've been told off + blocked on twitter for chiming in about something I have intimate personal experience with, because white male. Or the semi-famous video "you're a WHITE MALE!" (language warning) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0diJNybk0Mw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0diJNybk0Mw
- wrsh07 10y ago
  Of course it's not the only facet that matters. And I think that minorities want white males to be a part of the discussion about race. However, oftentimes white males say the same exact things. You can kind of enumerate them, "Not all white males," "White people can be poor," "Hey, you're black, can you explain...?" etc. Many answers to these questions can be found here: http://theteej.tumblr.com/post/122334039549/hi-white-friends-things-have-been-tense-lately http://theteej.tumblr.com/post/122334039549/hi-white-friends... I don't expect you to read it. But if you want to understand why people get frustrated when you chime in about something it's probably because they've heard the thing that you're saying a gazillion times already and are tired of responding to it. They don't owe you a response. Finally, I'll reference John Green and say that if you're doing something that multiple people tell you is offensive or bothersome: Stop doing it.
  - BurningFrog 10y ago
    > Finally, I'll reference John Green and say that if you're doing something that multiple people tell you is offensive or bothersome: Stop doing it. Does that include people telling you Social Justice rhetoric is offensive or bothersome?

thedz 10y ago

> That's how life works. Stop whining. No, life isn't fair. Deal with it. I realize that the context is different in the U.S. vs the rest of the world, but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Or to segregated blacks in the 1900s? Or to women who couldn't vote? Or, to use a more modern example, to Muslims who are facing prejudice and persecution because of the actions of extremists? Throughout history, "stop whining, deal with it" has tended to be the refrain of the privileged.

mhurron 10y ago
Dealing with it can include working toward change. Screaming 'White Privilege' is just complaining without action.
- sbov 10y ago
  Making people aware of the problem and recommending they help with it is part of working towards change. Which is all the OP really did.
BurningFrog 10y ago
The first three are examples of government regulations explicitly favoring some groups over others. That is fundamentally different from a society with legal equality for all individuals. Yes, some groups will be more popular than others. It's hard to see how that can ever be avoided. Of course, if you are a slave, you do really need to deal with that situation as best as you can. Does anyone dispute that?
maratd 10y ago
> but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Yes, I would say exactly that. I would tell them to accept their situation, not whine about it, then break free and run to the north. Many did just that. When they got to the north, I would encourage them to work hard and make a better life for themselves through hard work. Many did just that. Yes, they would need to work harder than insert privileged example here to have a good life. Because they're starting from zero. And that's fine. Because that's life. Many of us start from zero or worse. Many of us were hurt or are being hurt by someone's unjust actions. That doesn't mean you try to rig the system. We are born with thousands of disadvantages and thousands of advantages. You simply can't engineer a system that will compensate for all of that to create some sort of utopia. We tried that before. It didn't go so well.

st3v3r 10y ago

This is an abhorrent view to take. "I got mine, so fuck all of you."