4 ms·

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. I grew up in a small, very blue col

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. I grew up in a small, very blue collar town (the sort that most people never escape). We lived on social assistance, at least until my mother killed herself and I went to live in foster homes. Eventually my father -- who later died from asbestos related cancer from his job -- let me move into a spare bedroom at his girlfriend's house. "White male privilege". I "made it", so to speak, purely on the backs of a couple of teachers who tried really hard, and the luck of having interests and aptitudes perfect for the time in a burgeoning, lucrative industry. But I certainly did not have a privileged upbringing.

snowwrestler 10y ago
Do you think that no women or minorities grew up in a small blue collar town, lived on social assistance, lost their parents, lived in a foster home? The concept of privilege does not mean "you did not earn what you have." It means "other people with circumstances like yours were prevented from earning what you have, because of their gender or ethnicity." It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly.
- splintercell 10y ago
  > It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly. I really hate these sales pitch documents "Visit our showroom, have some food, and you don't have to buy anything". Just answer the question, what exactly are you looking people to do?
- osweiller 10y ago
  Do you think that no... I have not assumed anyone else's privilege, or lack of privilege. I haven't made assumptions, demanding group guilt or deference, based upon a simplistic caricature or stereotype. It's not about tearing anyone down. I read a statement telling me to remember all of the privilege I have enjoyed since birth. My experience differs, and these sorts of simplified claims fail (the same sort of simplification/see what you want that is the root of racism). Countering sexism or racism or inequality by attempting to force feed sexism, racism and inequality will never move the conversation forward. It is never useful.
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    People ask white guys to remember the privilege they experience because it is invisible to them. No one walks around every day thinking, "My whole life, I've never been attacked by a tiger. Thank god." But people who have been attacked by a tiger certainly remember it! That's an extreme example to illustrate what privilege means in this context. It's the absence of challenges that other people face. In that respect it is indeed an assumption, in that it is an unexamined filter through which white guys perceive the world. It doesn't mean white guys don't face challenges too. You've had your own tiger attacks, plenty of them it sounds like. So imagine sitting in a room with a guy the same age as you--but he was raised by healthy, wealthy, devoted parents, went to the best private schools, raised his first seed round from his dad's friends. "God, I've worked so hard to get where I am," he says. "I can't stand it when people say I haven't earned everything I've got." Wouldn't you feel a bit resentful toward that person? Give me a break, right? He was born on 3rd base and thinks he hit a triple. That's a form of privilege, really the original form of privilege, the one that defined the word. What we are coming to understand now is that there are other forms of privilege. Just like that guy didn't choose to be born to rich parents, he also didn't choose to born a white guy. Neither did I. But there is ample evidence that being a white guy is an advantage, at least in U.S. society, and certainly in the tech field today. Call it: being born a little ways down the first base line. I've had an easier time beating the throw to first than someone born closer to home base--even if I don't realize it, even if I still ran as fast as I can. (extended metaphor alert) What would you want from that rich guy? Some awareness--a willingness to listen to other perspectives and life stories. Some introspection--a willingness to compare and integrate them with his own personal experiences. Some empathy--appreciation for others. And fairness--a willingness to consider people for partnerships, collaboration, work, ideas, even if they didn't go to the same fancy schools, or wear expensive dress shirts every day. Even if they have a totally different life story. Even if they look different, talk different. And ideally advocacy--telling his rich buddies to think about these things, to not be so quick to hire folks who mostly look and talk just like themselves, to give people a chance and actively work on inclusiveness. So I don't think it's an issue of trying to force feed anything. I'm asking you to consider that there is more to the situation than you might have experienced or thought about. If you're in a position to deliver the things I list above, then some other person who is working hard might really appreciate it. edit: crpatino puts it much better than I did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11572275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11572275
- blub 10y ago
  Yes it is about tearing someone down - white males. Because some white males in the US/UK/etc did some bad things some time ago. If it weren't about tearing people down, you would be trying to support everyone equally without making others feel guilty.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  that's the thing here - who the fk is denied success in IT, which all this about? I am from east Europe too, currently living in Western Europe, and the only discrimination I ever saw in university and professional job was positive discrimination against women. At school, that 1 girl we had in whole class out of 100 students was pampered with so much attention and had it so easy on verbal exams (written of course were equal as far as I can say). Everybody would love to have more girls, from teachers to students, but they couldn't care less. Economic studies were far more sexi rather than geeky IT guys. Same when working - when hiring, female devs were so rare that there was very strong preference in female candidates (ie all that showed up were hired, but it's fair to say they were good... just not better than competing guys). Right now, I am sitting in front of a consulting girl from Azerbaijan and a guy from Morocco. Both well performing and highly regarded in our company. This IS fair world, as much as we can do it. Not 100%, but damn good and far better than ever before. So stop whining and rather contribute.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
crpatino 10y ago
Privilege is multifactorial. There are such things as white privilege, and male privilege; but those are not the only (nor arguably, the most significant) privileges there are. Being "blue collar" and "from a small town" probably set you back in at least 3 or 4 different kinds of priviledges (as in economic, well learned, and urban/cosmopolitan). So, if you compare yourself to black women that had all advantages, yes, your life more often than not will turn to have been harder. If, on the other hand, you genuinely want to understand what "white male privilege" is all about, you should look at how women of racial minorities fared in your home town, or other similar towns. And even greater insight can be gained by observing how people treats other white men from the same town who are otherwise disadvantaged: guys with physical or cognitive disabilities, gay men, men with "foreign" accents (specially if their speech ressembles that from a not-so-far rival town), or for the matter old folks. Even if they are treated "fairly", the small indignities they have to endure on a daily basis may build up to something significant.
- osweiller 10y ago
  If, on the other hand, you genuinely want to understand what "white male privilege" is all about, you should look at how women of racial minorities fared in your home town, or other similar towns. Such an analysis would not yield the results I believe you expect. Most of the minority families from my town have been very successful -- they put high demands and expectations on their children, worked hard, etc. The world didn't expect them to fail, as it does with "white trash" males, and their potential was theirs to make. In no universe am I saying they excelled because of affirmative action or anything of the sort -- they worked for everything they got, and earned it -- but society isn't predetermined to expect failure from them. I grew up a poor white male in unfortunate circumstances. Nothing was expected of me (I often joked about wishing I was Jewish, because then I'd have expectations), and every door was shut. There were no advantages. I remember one particular malignant teacher saying to another, after I had left a room, "water flows to its own level". And of the white males who I grew up around, most did menial jobs and cycled in and out of unemployment, some went to jail, etc. 90%+, roughly, still live in that small town. The whole white male privilege thing seems to be a classic divergence between the median, and the mean. A small percentage of spectacularly successful white males pull the mean up, while the median lies in the masses of people living miserable lives. But the masses have to suffer and acknowledge their privilege because of the mean. Or maybe we should simply discard with the whole premise of trying to simplify large groups on traits.

snowwrestler 10y ago

Do you think that no women or minorities grew up in a small blue collar town, lived on social assistance, lost their parents, lived in a foster home? The concept of privilege does not mean "you did not earn what you have." It means "other people with circumstances like yours were prevented from earning what you have, because of their gender or ethnicity." It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly.

splintercell 10y ago
> It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly. I really hate these sales pitch documents "Visit our showroom, have some food, and you don't have to buy anything". Just answer the question, what exactly are you looking people to do?
osweiller 10y ago
Do you think that no... I have not assumed anyone else's privilege, or lack of privilege. I haven't made assumptions, demanding group guilt or deference, based upon a simplistic caricature or stereotype. It's not about tearing anyone down. I read a statement telling me to remember all of the privilege I have enjoyed since birth. My experience differs, and these sorts of simplified claims fail (the same sort of simplification/see what you want that is the root of racism). Countering sexism or racism or inequality by attempting to force feed sexism, racism and inequality will never move the conversation forward. It is never useful.
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  People ask white guys to remember the privilege they experience because it is invisible to them. No one walks around every day thinking, "My whole life, I've never been attacked by a tiger. Thank god." But people who have been attacked by a tiger certainly remember it! That's an extreme example to illustrate what privilege means in this context. It's the absence of challenges that other people face. In that respect it is indeed an assumption, in that it is an unexamined filter through which white guys perceive the world. It doesn't mean white guys don't face challenges too. You've had your own tiger attacks, plenty of them it sounds like. So imagine sitting in a room with a guy the same age as you--but he was raised by healthy, wealthy, devoted parents, went to the best private schools, raised his first seed round from his dad's friends. "God, I've worked so hard to get where I am," he says. "I can't stand it when people say I haven't earned everything I've got." Wouldn't you feel a bit resentful toward that person? Give me a break, right? He was born on 3rd base and thinks he hit a triple. That's a form of privilege, really the original form of privilege, the one that defined the word. What we are coming to understand now is that there are other forms of privilege. Just like that guy didn't choose to be born to rich parents, he also didn't choose to born a white guy. Neither did I. But there is ample evidence that being a white guy is an advantage, at least in U.S. society, and certainly in the tech field today. Call it: being born a little ways down the first base line. I've had an easier time beating the throw to first than someone born closer to home base--even if I don't realize it, even if I still ran as fast as I can. (extended metaphor alert) What would you want from that rich guy? Some awareness--a willingness to listen to other perspectives and life stories. Some introspection--a willingness to compare and integrate them with his own personal experiences. Some empathy--appreciation for others. And fairness--a willingness to consider people for partnerships, collaboration, work, ideas, even if they didn't go to the same fancy schools, or wear expensive dress shirts every day. Even if they have a totally different life story. Even if they look different, talk different. And ideally advocacy--telling his rich buddies to think about these things, to not be so quick to hire folks who mostly look and talk just like themselves, to give people a chance and actively work on inclusiveness. So I don't think it's an issue of trying to force feed anything. I'm asking you to consider that there is more to the situation than you might have experienced or thought about. If you're in a position to deliver the things I list above, then some other person who is working hard might really appreciate it. edit: crpatino puts it much better than I did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11572275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11572275
blub 10y ago
Yes it is about tearing someone down - white males. Because some white males in the US/UK/etc did some bad things some time ago. If it weren't about tearing people down, you would be trying to support everyone equally without making others feel guilty.
saiya-jin 10y ago
that's the thing here - who the fk is denied success in IT, which all this about? I am from east Europe too, currently living in Western Europe, and the only discrimination I ever saw in university and professional job was positive discrimination against women. At school, that 1 girl we had in whole class out of 100 students was pampered with so much attention and had it so easy on verbal exams (written of course were equal as far as I can say). Everybody would love to have more girls, from teachers to students, but they couldn't care less. Economic studies were far more sexi rather than geeky IT guys. Same when working - when hiring, female devs were so rare that there was very strong preference in female candidates (ie all that showed up were hired, but it's fair to say they were good... just not better than competing guys). Right now, I am sitting in front of a consulting girl from Azerbaijan and a guy from Morocco. Both well performing and highly regarded in our company. This IS fair world, as much as we can do it. Not 100%, but damn good and far better than ever before. So stop whining and rather contribute.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

crpatino 10y ago

Privilege is multifactorial. There are such things as white privilege, and male privilege; but those are not the only (nor arguably, the most significant) privileges there are. Being "blue collar" and "from a small town" probably set you back in at least 3 or 4 different kinds of priviledges (as in economic, well learned, and urban/cosmopolitan). So, if you compare yourself to black women that had all advantages, yes, your life more often than not will turn to have been harder. If, on the other hand, you genuinely want to understand what "white male privilege" is all about, you should look at how women of racial minorities fared in your home town, or other similar towns. And even greater insight can be gained by observing how people treats other white men from the same town who are otherwise disadvantaged: guys with physical or cognitive disabilities, gay men, men with "foreign" accents (specially if their speech ressembles that from a not-so-far rival town), or for the matter old folks. Even if they are treated "fairly", the small indignities they have to endure on a daily basis may build up to something significant.

osweiller 10y ago
If, on the other hand, you genuinely want to understand what "white male privilege" is all about, you should look at how women of racial minorities fared in your home town, or other similar towns. Such an analysis would not yield the results I believe you expect. Most of the minority families from my town have been very successful -- they put high demands and expectations on their children, worked hard, etc. The world didn't expect them to fail, as it does with "white trash" males, and their potential was theirs to make. In no universe am I saying they excelled because of affirmative action or anything of the sort -- they worked for everything they got, and earned it -- but society isn't predetermined to expect failure from them. I grew up a poor white male in unfortunate circumstances. Nothing was expected of me (I often joked about wishing I was Jewish, because then I'd have expectations), and every door was shut. There were no advantages. I remember one particular malignant teacher saying to another, after I had left a room, "water flows to its own level". And of the white males who I grew up around, most did menial jobs and cycled in and out of unemployment, some went to jail, etc. 90%+, roughly, still live in that small town. The whole white male privilege thing seems to be a classic divergence between the median, and the mean. A small percentage of spectacularly successful white males pull the mean up, while the median lies in the masses of people living miserable lives. But the masses have to suffer and acknowledge their privilege because of the mean. Or maybe we should simply discard with the whole premise of trying to simplify large groups on traits.