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Likewise for Computer Science classes in Western Europe (and I imagine North America). This is the issue with arbitrary quotas/targets for hiring female enginee

by saulr 10y ago

Likewise for Computer Science classes in Western Europe (and I imagine North America). This is the issue with arbitrary quotas/targets for hiring female engineers - there is a lack of those qualified. I acknowledge that there is a huge disparity between male/female workers in the field, but the issue is far earlier in an aspiring engineer's life than getting a job. STEM subjects have far fewer female students than male - this is the core of the issue. The lack of women in STEM careers is a symptom of this core problem.

reefoctopus 10y ago
Stop calling it a problem. Why is it a problem that preferences differ? Is it a problem that more women aren't miners or plumbers?
- interpol_p 10y ago
  Because we don't completely know whether preferences differ, or whether cultural biases cause those preferences to differ. I have a young boy and a girl. They are pushed into so many gendered roles from such a young age I have a really hard time trying to figure out what they actually like, versus what society tells them they should like. My son recently picked up a pink toy in a store and said "I can't have this one because it's for girls, daddy." He used to love the colour pink. I wanted to scream in frustration because society has pushed him to rate a wavelength of light as "for girls" or "for boys." I told him that anyone can like whatever colour they want. But he now refuses to play with pink toys, because society has made it very clear that he's not supposed to touch them. So yeah, maybe women would make fine plumbers and miners. We have typically pushed men into those roles. So we'll never know.
  - exstudent2 10y ago
    It sounds like your son exercised his free will. Whether you influence him or society does, he ultimately has to be responsible for his choices. Some will be easy, some hard but it's a cliche to disagree with your child's choices. Maybe he's comfortable with his gender and gender roles? Maybe that will help him get a wife someday and you grandchildren. It's not for everyone but maybe it will be for him.
    - interpol_p 10y ago
      I don’t “disagree with his choices.” I find it frustrating that our culture made him feel ashamed of liking his favourite colour. I find it frustrating that he is made to believe something as arbitrary as a wavelength of light is “for girls.” A child should never feel ashamed of liking something as simple as a colour. That is ridiculous. > Maybe he's comfortable with his gender and gender roles? Maybe that will help him get a wife someday and you grandchildren. It's not for everyone but maybe it will be for him. Are you serious? He can get a wife or whatever he wants when he knows what that is. It is amusing to think that traditional "gender roles" would help in any way with that.
      - logfromblammo 10y ago
        It isn't an arbitrary wavelength. It's an entire absorption spectrum. If the wavelength were the determining factor, green would be gender-neutral, and purple would be androgynous. Not that this particular societal prejudice could ever be explained rationally, of course.~
  - rimantas 10y ago
    So don't call it a problem if you don't know it is a problem.
  - collyw 10y ago
    Worth looking at this before assuming that "society has pushed him". https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-pr...
  - eric_the_read 10y ago
    To add to the amusement/despair value, pink used to be considered a boy's colour during Victorian times, because it was considered a stronger, bolder colour, whereas blue was more delicate and feminine and thus suitable for girls. http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-common-color-boys-blue-girls/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-co...
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  A lot of preferences don't differ; no one likes to be discriminated against, harassed, intimidated, made to feel stupid, etc. Yet we know from data and endless personal stories that many women start out performing well and enjoying math and science in school, but then leave computing fields for cultural reasons--they feel uncomfortable or like there is a hard glass ceiling. That is the problem--not the raw participation numbers, but the reasons behind the numbers. If there was some natural preference of women away from computing, then the percentage of women in programming would be relatively fixed over time. What the data shows is that women have left computing fields in dramatic number over the last 30 years. Every study into why has shown that, to some extent, they have been driven out.
  - reefoctopus 10y ago
    I agree that no one likes to be discriminated against which is why I take issue with the "too many white males in tech" narrative. The proposed solution is to discriminate against people like me. I've never once worked somewhere where everybody didn't walk on eggshells to ensure not to offend anyone. Women who are being harassed and intimidated have legal recourse. It's practically career ending to end up on the wrong end of a sexual harassment complaint to HR. >What the data shows is that women have left computing fields in dramatic number over the last 30 years. Every study into why has shown that, to some extent, they have been driven out. Please cite your sources.
    - snowwrestler 10y ago
      It feels awful to think that you might not get a job you wanted because of your gender or the color of your skin doesn't it? This can be a moment of introspection if you let it. Imagine feeling that way almost every day of your life. There's a positive way and a negative to resolve the situation. The negative way is to impose hiring quotas, so that everyone--even white guys--feel the same fear of unfair denial. That's what you're talking about when you say: > The proposed solution is to discriminate against people like me. But there's another way. The positive way is for people to use their conscious intelligent mind to analyze and overrule the unconscious implicit biases that they grew up with, so everyone gets a fairer chance based on merit. For that to happen, a lot of people will need to a) believe it's a problem, and b) work out loud to fix it. Your comments are not moving the ball in that more positive direction, unfortunately. > Please cite your sources. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+do+women+leave+tech http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+do+women+leave+tech
shrewduser 10y ago
I don't understand this logic, from an age before i even could fathom what 'racism' or 'sexism' was i was fascinated by computers and technology during early high school the dot com bubble happened and most of my teachers advised me against going into IT, they talked about low wages, unemployment, constantly re learning as tech progresses, outsourcing job et al girls didn't much care for computer guys and they were near the bottom of the social pecking order. in my experience i was an outcast. i was being highly discouraged everywhere i looked, but i didn't care one bit, i was doing it because i was interested in it. of course now all of those factors have reversed themselves not that i could have forseen that. my point is that maybe today women and certain races face some of these issues, maybe you could make the argument that they're discouraged (seems to me that they're encouraged a lot more than i was) but even if we accept that as a truism, which i clearly don't, who cares, if these people are no less able let them prove it and this culture of barriers (which i don't believe in anyway) will subside.

by saulr 10y ago

reefoctopus 10y ago

Stop calling it a problem. Why is it a problem that preferences differ? Is it a problem that more women aren't miners or plumbers?

interpol_p 10y ago
Because we don't completely know whether preferences differ, or whether cultural biases cause those preferences to differ. I have a young boy and a girl. They are pushed into so many gendered roles from such a young age I have a really hard time trying to figure out what they actually like, versus what society tells them they should like. My son recently picked up a pink toy in a store and said "I can't have this one because it's for girls, daddy." He used to love the colour pink. I wanted to scream in frustration because society has pushed him to rate a wavelength of light as "for girls" or "for boys." I told him that anyone can like whatever colour they want. But he now refuses to play with pink toys, because society has made it very clear that he's not supposed to touch them. So yeah, maybe women would make fine plumbers and miners. We have typically pushed men into those roles. So we'll never know.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  It sounds like your son exercised his free will. Whether you influence him or society does, he ultimately has to be responsible for his choices. Some will be easy, some hard but it's a cliche to disagree with your child's choices. Maybe he's comfortable with his gender and gender roles? Maybe that will help him get a wife someday and you grandchildren. It's not for everyone but maybe it will be for him.
  - interpol_p 10y ago
    I don’t “disagree with his choices.” I find it frustrating that our culture made him feel ashamed of liking his favourite colour. I find it frustrating that he is made to believe something as arbitrary as a wavelength of light is “for girls.” A child should never feel ashamed of liking something as simple as a colour. That is ridiculous. > Maybe he's comfortable with his gender and gender roles? Maybe that will help him get a wife someday and you grandchildren. It's not for everyone but maybe it will be for him. Are you serious? He can get a wife or whatever he wants when he knows what that is. It is amusing to think that traditional "gender roles" would help in any way with that.
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
      It isn't an arbitrary wavelength. It's an entire absorption spectrum. If the wavelength were the determining factor, green would be gender-neutral, and purple would be androgynous. Not that this particular societal prejudice could ever be explained rationally, of course.~
- rimantas 10y ago
  So don't call it a problem if you don't know it is a problem.
- collyw 10y ago
  Worth looking at this before assuming that "society has pushed him". https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-pr...
- eric_the_read 10y ago
  To add to the amusement/despair value, pink used to be considered a boy's colour during Victorian times, because it was considered a stronger, bolder colour, whereas blue was more delicate and feminine and thus suitable for girls. http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-common-color-boys-blue-girls/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-co...
snowwrestler 10y ago
A lot of preferences don't differ; no one likes to be discriminated against, harassed, intimidated, made to feel stupid, etc. Yet we know from data and endless personal stories that many women start out performing well and enjoying math and science in school, but then leave computing fields for cultural reasons--they feel uncomfortable or like there is a hard glass ceiling. That is the problem--not the raw participation numbers, but the reasons behind the numbers. If there was some natural preference of women away from computing, then the percentage of women in programming would be relatively fixed over time. What the data shows is that women have left computing fields in dramatic number over the last 30 years. Every study into why has shown that, to some extent, they have been driven out.
- reefoctopus 10y ago
  I agree that no one likes to be discriminated against which is why I take issue with the "too many white males in tech" narrative. The proposed solution is to discriminate against people like me. I've never once worked somewhere where everybody didn't walk on eggshells to ensure not to offend anyone. Women who are being harassed and intimidated have legal recourse. It's practically career ending to end up on the wrong end of a sexual harassment complaint to HR. >What the data shows is that women have left computing fields in dramatic number over the last 30 years. Every study into why has shown that, to some extent, they have been driven out. Please cite your sources.
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    It feels awful to think that you might not get a job you wanted because of your gender or the color of your skin doesn't it? This can be a moment of introspection if you let it. Imagine feeling that way almost every day of your life. There's a positive way and a negative to resolve the situation. The negative way is to impose hiring quotas, so that everyone--even white guys--feel the same fear of unfair denial. That's what you're talking about when you say: > The proposed solution is to discriminate against people like me. But there's another way. The positive way is for people to use their conscious intelligent mind to analyze and overrule the unconscious implicit biases that they grew up with, so everyone gets a fairer chance based on merit. For that to happen, a lot of people will need to a) believe it's a problem, and b) work out loud to fix it. Your comments are not moving the ball in that more positive direction, unfortunately. > Please cite your sources. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+do+women+leave+tech http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+do+women+leave+tech

shrewduser 10y ago

I don't understand this logic, from an age before i even could fathom what 'racism' or 'sexism' was i was fascinated by computers and technology during early high school the dot com bubble happened and most of my teachers advised me against going into IT, they talked about low wages, unemployment, constantly re learning as tech progresses, outsourcing job et al girls didn't much care for computer guys and they were near the bottom of the social pecking order. in my experience i was an outcast. i was being highly discouraged everywhere i looked, but i didn't care one bit, i was doing it because i was interested in it. of course now all of those factors have reversed themselves not that i could have forseen that. my point is that maybe today women and certain races face some of these issues, maybe you could make the argument that they're discouraged (seems to me that they're encouraged a lot more than i was) but even if we accept that as a truism, which i clearly don't, who cares, if these people are no less able let them prove it and this culture of barriers (which i don't believe in anyway) will subside.