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The author is not assuming you, personally, got an easy ride. Nor is the author dismissing any and all hardships faced by white males during their lifetimes. It

The author is not assuming you, personally, got an easy ride. Nor is the author dismissing any and all hardships faced by white males during their lifetimes. It is disappointing that you took his comment that way. Acknowledging that it is easier to make it in the tech industry if you are a white male does not mean that it wasn't hard for you. It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. You don't call out the author on such comments because you don't need to read such comments as a personal attack. I worked hard as hell to get into this industry. I came from a poor family. I slept in my car for a long time just to afford to get my first product out. But I had the advantage of being a white male who grew up in a culture where those things gave me an advantage from birth. From the cartoons I watched as a child (far more male heroes than female) to the politicians in my country (mostly white and male), to most of my role models in my field of choice (also white, male). In addition to a million other invisible benefits. I was able to go into technology with confidence and social support that many other groups will not have. > No, it's not. Just like women don't have any duty to ensure that there's an arbitrary number of men working as models and just like black NBA players have no obligation to ensure that there's enough white guys on the team I have no obligation to worry about some arbitrary quotas. I think that's a sad way to look at things. We are not trying to ensure there is an "arbitrary number" of certain types of people working in our field. We are simply acknowledging that there are unnecessary hurdles faced by many groups who may otherwise already be working in our field. It is a wonderful thing to have the power and voice to "send the elevator down" to help those people up.

jedrek 10y ago
> It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. Spot on. If the previous poster went to a technical institute in Eastern Europe, I am willing to bet that his classes were at least 90% male.
- saulr 10y ago
  Likewise for Computer Science classes in Western Europe (and I imagine North America). This is the issue with arbitrary quotas/targets for hiring female engineers - there is a lack of those qualified. I acknowledge that there is a huge disparity between male/female workers in the field, but the issue is far earlier in an aspiring engineer's life than getting a job. STEM subjects have far fewer female students than male - this is the core of the issue. The lack of women in STEM careers is a symptom of this core problem.
  - reefoctopus 10y ago
    Stop calling it a problem. Why is it a problem that preferences differ? Is it a problem that more women aren't miners or plumbers?
    - interpol_p 10y ago
      Because we don't completely know whether preferences differ, or whether cultural biases cause those preferences to differ. I have a young boy and a girl. They are pushed into so many gendered roles from such a young age I have a really hard time trying to figure out what they actually like, versus what society tells them they should like. My son recently picked up a pink toy in a store and said "I can't have this one because it's for girls, daddy." He used to love the colour pink. I wanted to scream in frustration because society has pushed him to rate a wavelength of light as "for girls" or "for boys." I told him that anyone can like whatever colour they want. But he now refuses to play with pink toys, because society has made it very clear that he's not supposed to touch them. So yeah, maybe women would make fine plumbers and miners. We have typically pushed men into those roles. So we'll never know.
      - exstudent2 10y ago
        It sounds like your son exercised his free will. Whether you influence him or society does, he ultimately has to be responsible for his choices. Some will be easy, some hard but it's a cliche to disagree with your child's choices. Maybe he's comfortable with his gender and gender roles? Maybe that will help him get a wife someday and you grandchildren. It's not for everyone but maybe it will be for him.
- j4kp07 10y ago
  Correlation =/= Causation
- elbear 10y ago
  Well, actually Romania has a high number of women studying technical subjects, almost at the same level as males. http://motherboard.vice.com/read/in-romania-vestiges-of-communism-boost-women-in-tech http://motherboard.vice.com/read/in-romania-vestiges-of-comm...
exstudent2 10y ago
> I was able to go into technology with confidence and social support that many other groups will not have. Where I grew up (in 1980s US), white males were almost universally derided for being into technology. It wasn't until the 2000s that it became "cool". There was no privilege associated with being a geek. It was something many of us did despite the social stigma. That's why it's humorous to see people claim there was some sort of privilege associated with those who where early in tech. Yes it turned out to be economically viable but there was huge social pressure against participating.
- interpol_p 10y ago
  Same as where I grew up. Geeks were never cool. Being into computers attracted social stigma. You and I went through the same things. It doesn't change what I've said above. I still walked into Computer Science feeling at ease with the course before I started, and feeling easily welcomed among my very nerdy peers. (Plus the one girl in the first class I had. Imagine how she felt. Social stigma of computers and being the only girl. Must've sucked.)
  - exstudent2 10y ago
    Actually we didn't go through the same things. I grew up in poor rural America. There were no computer science programs. I didn't go to university and most of my peers went to the army or jail. Would you have felt "at ease" walking into a design course at the fashion institute? How about a freestyle rap battle or a pick-up basketball game? A rodeo? Different cultures expose their members to different activities. Outsiders may have a tougher time breaking in but it can be done. Finding the strength to do it is admirable. Homogenizing everyone is not.
    - foldr 10y ago
      How do you figure that getting a more diverse group of people interested in programming will make us more homogenous? Seems like it ought to do the opposite.
belorn 10y ago
From the cartoons I watched as a child, (far more male villains than female), to the narrowed defined male acceptable professions, to most of role models in other professions (all female), In addition to a million other invisible punishments for not following the cultural rules. I, like most of people with my gender went to a profession that was cultural accepted for that gender, and most people of the other gender went to cultural accepted professions for their gender. How privileged they must be!
- interpol_p 10y ago
  More male villains is on point. Heroes and villains are powerful. We typically see more female victims than male. Many of our tropes and stereotypes revolve around women as victims. > to the narrowed defined male acceptable professions, to most of role models in other professions (all female) Are you trying to start a competition of who can exclude each other the most? > In addition to a million other invisible punishments for not following the cultural rules Such rules are what hold us back. Encouraging diversity where you have the power to do so is a great way to break these rules and help people. > I, like most of people with my gender went to a profession that was cultural accepted for that gender, and most people of the other gender went to cultural accepted professions for their gender. It's a sad thing, isn't it? It would be great if we could change our industry for the better and perhaps become an example to others.
  - belorn 10y ago
    You are missing the point if you think it about competition. 80% of work professions are considered gendered, cultural exclusive to one gender. There is no privileged gender there, and you are only harming people by continuing that narrative. > More male villains is on point. Heroes and villains are powerful. We typically see more female victims than male. A study a few years ago looked at the probability that a character would get killed, and fathers in movies had a much higher chance to be killed that a mothers. It generally followed the lines of older male role model -> fathers -> daughters -> sons -> mothers as highest to lowest risk of being a victim of murder in movies. They did not look at henchmen, especially those located in movies for kids. But what I really find is sad, is that certain type of villains are so exclusively male that they never gets casted as female. One of those is the character that the audience is supposed to get a visceral hatred for. The character that do evil for evil sake, that torture his victim for no reason, and the audience is made to hate so much that any violence is not enough to satisfy the justified cry for blood. I have never seen a feminist advocate to have a female Vaas Montenegro, nor do I think we will see one any time soon.
j4kp07 10y ago
> It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. That is an absurd, subjective, abstract theory with no research to back it. The same thing can be said of any sex, race or creed in virtually any instance of life. Get over yourself and quit acting like this is exclusive to white people. White people did not invent sexism. Neither is it exclusive to them. White people did not invent racism. Neither is it exclusive to them. White people did not invent religion. Neither is it exclusive to them.
- fucking_tragedy 10y ago
  If we are talking about America, certain white people certainly profited from stirring up racism here for centuries. We don't even have to look back to when slavery was legal, the blatant use of racism and dog-whistle politics to gain white racist's votes is well documented as being the core tenet to the Southern strategy.
  - j4kp07 10y ago
    > If we are talking about America, certain white people certainly profited from stirring up racism here for centuries. Did you know that less than 1% of the population in America owned slaves in the 19th century? And some of those 1% where African? And that some of those slaves where European or Asian? And that all of those 1% are now dead and long gone? > We don't even have to look back to when slavery was legal I hope you realize, that you can turn back the clock and find fault with all races, sexes and creeds. You are being ignorant and singling out one race to fit your narrative of "White Privilege". This is the 21st century. Quit using 19th century white guilt to push an agenda.
  - hueving 10y ago
    Some white people a long time ago had slaves, therefore all white people including those that immigrated just recently are unfairly privileged. Yawn. It's such a nonsensical argument that I'm surprised anyone can even use it in a non sarcastic way.
ManlyBread 10y ago
>It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. Women here get hired easier (because US companies have the same policy for quotas, Intel is notorious for this), I know women who got an internship purely because they were women, there are free bootcamps and classes targeting women... not to mention all these special programs EU has for women who want to start their own company (and yes, these programs are for women exclusively). I have yet to see a program or class targeted specifically for men. So exactly what disadvantages are you talking about?
- interpol_p 10y ago
  Let's look at the stats. Apple's diversity report [1] states their tech employees are composed of 79% male, 22% female. Facebook's diversity report [2] shows 85% males in tech vs 15% female. Google's is pretty much the same, and you can compare them all with interactive graphs [3]. Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. The programs you mention for women are great, I agree. These are the steps we need to take if we want women who are interested in technology to come forward join our field. But women are not more easily hired. If that were the case then it would be reflected in, you know, reality. [1] http://www.apple.com/diversity/ http://www.apple.com/diversity/ [2] http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/25/facebook-diversity/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/25/facebook-diversity/ [3] http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/20/9179853/tech-diversity-scorecard-apple-google-microsoft-facebook-intel-twitter-amazon http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/20/9179853/tech-diversity-sco...
  - j4kp07 10y ago
    LMAO....you literally just said prior to this comment: "We are not trying to ensure there is an "arbitrary number" of certain types of people working in our field." You are a walking Poster Child for hypocrisy.
    - interpol_p 10y ago
      How does sharing such stats imply achieving "arbitrary numbers" in any sense? I am pointing at data showing a large disparity in tech employment relative to the population. Women are equally as capable as men when it comes to tech, so we should expect equal representation. We don't get equal representation because of existing cultural biases against women in this field. It's the same reason we don't get equal representation of men in many "women's" fields where men are clearly as capable as women.

jedrek 10y ago

> It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. Spot on. If the previous poster went to a technical institute in Eastern Europe, I am willing to bet that his classes were at least 90% male.

saulr 10y ago
Likewise for Computer Science classes in Western Europe (and I imagine North America). This is the issue with arbitrary quotas/targets for hiring female engineers - there is a lack of those qualified. I acknowledge that there is a huge disparity between male/female workers in the field, but the issue is far earlier in an aspiring engineer's life than getting a job. STEM subjects have far fewer female students than male - this is the core of the issue. The lack of women in STEM careers is a symptom of this core problem.
- reefoctopus 10y ago
  Stop calling it a problem. Why is it a problem that preferences differ? Is it a problem that more women aren't miners or plumbers?
  - interpol_p 10y ago
    Because we don't completely know whether preferences differ, or whether cultural biases cause those preferences to differ. I have a young boy and a girl. They are pushed into so many gendered roles from such a young age I have a really hard time trying to figure out what they actually like, versus what society tells them they should like. My son recently picked up a pink toy in a store and said "I can't have this one because it's for girls, daddy." He used to love the colour pink. I wanted to scream in frustration because society has pushed him to rate a wavelength of light as "for girls" or "for boys." I told him that anyone can like whatever colour they want. But he now refuses to play with pink toys, because society has made it very clear that he's not supposed to touch them. So yeah, maybe women would make fine plumbers and miners. We have typically pushed men into those roles. So we'll never know.
    - exstudent2 10y ago
      It sounds like your son exercised his free will. Whether you influence him or society does, he ultimately has to be responsible for his choices. Some will be easy, some hard but it's a cliche to disagree with your child's choices. Maybe he's comfortable with his gender and gender roles? Maybe that will help him get a wife someday and you grandchildren. It's not for everyone but maybe it will be for him.
j4kp07 10y ago
Correlation =/= Causation
elbear 10y ago
Well, actually Romania has a high number of women studying technical subjects, almost at the same level as males. http://motherboard.vice.com/read/in-romania-vestiges-of-communism-boost-women-in-tech http://motherboard.vice.com/read/in-romania-vestiges-of-comm...

exstudent2 10y ago

> I was able to go into technology with confidence and social support that many other groups will not have. Where I grew up (in 1980s US), white males were almost universally derided for being into technology. It wasn't until the 2000s that it became "cool". There was no privilege associated with being a geek. It was something many of us did despite the social stigma. That's why it's humorous to see people claim there was some sort of privilege associated with those who where early in tech. Yes it turned out to be economically viable but there was huge social pressure against participating.

interpol_p 10y ago
Same as where I grew up. Geeks were never cool. Being into computers attracted social stigma. You and I went through the same things. It doesn't change what I've said above. I still walked into Computer Science feeling at ease with the course before I started, and feeling easily welcomed among my very nerdy peers. (Plus the one girl in the first class I had. Imagine how she felt. Social stigma of computers and being the only girl. Must've sucked.)
- exstudent2 10y ago
  Actually we didn't go through the same things. I grew up in poor rural America. There were no computer science programs. I didn't go to university and most of my peers went to the army or jail. Would you have felt "at ease" walking into a design course at the fashion institute? How about a freestyle rap battle or a pick-up basketball game? A rodeo? Different cultures expose their members to different activities. Outsiders may have a tougher time breaking in but it can be done. Finding the strength to do it is admirable. Homogenizing everyone is not.
  - foldr 10y ago
    How do you figure that getting a more diverse group of people interested in programming will make us more homogenous? Seems like it ought to do the opposite.

belorn 10y ago

From the cartoons I watched as a child, (far more male villains than female), to the narrowed defined male acceptable professions, to most of role models in other professions (all female), In addition to a million other invisible punishments for not following the cultural rules. I, like most of people with my gender went to a profession that was cultural accepted for that gender, and most people of the other gender went to cultural accepted professions for their gender. How privileged they must be!

interpol_p 10y ago
More male villains is on point. Heroes and villains are powerful. We typically see more female victims than male. Many of our tropes and stereotypes revolve around women as victims. > to the narrowed defined male acceptable professions, to most of role models in other professions (all female) Are you trying to start a competition of who can exclude each other the most? > In addition to a million other invisible punishments for not following the cultural rules Such rules are what hold us back. Encouraging diversity where you have the power to do so is a great way to break these rules and help people. > I, like most of people with my gender went to a profession that was cultural accepted for that gender, and most people of the other gender went to cultural accepted professions for their gender. It's a sad thing, isn't it? It would be great if we could change our industry for the better and perhaps become an example to others.
- belorn 10y ago
  You are missing the point if you think it about competition. 80% of work professions are considered gendered, cultural exclusive to one gender. There is no privileged gender there, and you are only harming people by continuing that narrative. > More male villains is on point. Heroes and villains are powerful. We typically see more female victims than male. A study a few years ago looked at the probability that a character would get killed, and fathers in movies had a much higher chance to be killed that a mothers. It generally followed the lines of older male role model -> fathers -> daughters -> sons -> mothers as highest to lowest risk of being a victim of murder in movies. They did not look at henchmen, especially those located in movies for kids. But what I really find is sad, is that certain type of villains are so exclusively male that they never gets casted as female. One of those is the character that the audience is supposed to get a visceral hatred for. The character that do evil for evil sake, that torture his victim for no reason, and the audience is made to hate so much that any violence is not enough to satisfy the justified cry for blood. I have never seen a feminist advocate to have a female Vaas Montenegro, nor do I think we will see one any time soon.

j4kp07 10y ago

> It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. That is an absurd, subjective, abstract theory with no research to back it. The same thing can be said of any sex, race or creed in virtually any instance of life. Get over yourself and quit acting like this is exclusive to white people. White people did not invent sexism. Neither is it exclusive to them. White people did not invent racism. Neither is it exclusive to them. White people did not invent religion. Neither is it exclusive to them.

fucking_tragedy 10y ago
If we are talking about America, certain white people certainly profited from stirring up racism here for centuries. We don't even have to look back to when slavery was legal, the blatant use of racism and dog-whistle politics to gain white racist's votes is well documented as being the core tenet to the Southern strategy.
- j4kp07 10y ago
  > If we are talking about America, certain white people certainly profited from stirring up racism here for centuries. Did you know that less than 1% of the population in America owned slaves in the 19th century? And some of those 1% where African? And that some of those slaves where European or Asian? And that all of those 1% are now dead and long gone? > We don't even have to look back to when slavery was legal I hope you realize, that you can turn back the clock and find fault with all races, sexes and creeds. You are being ignorant and singling out one race to fit your narrative of "White Privilege". This is the 21st century. Quit using 19th century white guilt to push an agenda.
- hueving 10y ago
  Some white people a long time ago had slaves, therefore all white people including those that immigrated just recently are unfairly privileged. Yawn. It's such a nonsensical argument that I'm surprised anyone can even use it in a non sarcastic way.

ManlyBread 10y ago

>It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. Women here get hired easier (because US companies have the same policy for quotas, Intel is notorious for this), I know women who got an internship purely because they were women, there are free bootcamps and classes targeting women... not to mention all these special programs EU has for women who want to start their own company (and yes, these programs are for women exclusively). I have yet to see a program or class targeted specifically for men. So exactly what disadvantages are you talking about?

interpol_p 10y ago
Let's look at the stats. Apple's diversity report [1] states their tech employees are composed of 79% male, 22% female. Facebook's diversity report [2] shows 85% males in tech vs 15% female. Google's is pretty much the same, and you can compare them all with interactive graphs [3]. Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. The programs you mention for women are great, I agree. These are the steps we need to take if we want women who are interested in technology to come forward join our field. But women are not more easily hired. If that were the case then it would be reflected in, you know, reality. [1] http://www.apple.com/diversity/ http://www.apple.com/diversity/ [2] http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/25/facebook-diversity/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/25/facebook-diversity/ [3] http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/20/9179853/tech-diversity-scorecard-apple-google-microsoft-facebook-intel-twitter-amazon http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/20/9179853/tech-diversity-sco...
- j4kp07 10y ago
  LMAO....you literally just said prior to this comment: "We are not trying to ensure there is an "arbitrary number" of certain types of people working in our field." You are a walking Poster Child for hypocrisy.
  - interpol_p 10y ago
    How does sharing such stats imply achieving "arbitrary numbers" in any sense? I am pointing at data showing a large disparity in tech employment relative to the population. Women are equally as capable as men when it comes to tech, so we should expect equal representation. We don't get equal representation because of existing cultural biases against women in this field. It's the same reason we don't get equal representation of men in many "women's" fields where men are clearly as capable as women.