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The device you used to type in your opinion was likely produced in Asia. This enabled you to pay less without getting less. You can in fact get a Bulgarian dev

by flexie 11y ago

The device you used to type in your opinion was likely produced in Asia. This enabled you to pay less without getting less. You can in fact get a Bulgarian developer which is just as good or even better than many Western European or American developers (I have hired a few) and for a fraction of the price. Meanwhile they may still be paid very decent amount of money that allows for them to have a standard of living exceeding the one they would have had if they had been employed in Switzerland with Swiss salary, and Swiss living cost. You don't always get what you pay for with developers or any other services or products. Sometimes, but not always.

AlexeyBrin 11y ago
From my traveling experience the cost of food in large cities in Bulgaria and Romania is about the same as the cost of food in Canada. Yes, they have (much) lower wages there and they will accept your low offer because they have no better choice to make more money. Please don't delude yourself in believing you pay them a fair/decent price. You just pay them better than what they could make locally.
- flexie 11y ago
  Oh, please. From my experience living in the US and now living in the capital of Bulgaria I know that the price of food, housing etc. is way lower here than in the valley or NYC. Easily 3 times cheaper. And the tax is lower too. But don't take my word for it: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/san-francisco https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/s...? A decent full stack developer in his early 20s with no or little college education and 2-4 years of working experience is paid out 25,000 dollars yearly after all taxes and social contributions are paid. Adjusting for living expenses that's like being paid out some $70-80,000 in the valley. Developers here don't have debt, easily save up money, live in nice apartments, drive German luxury cars, enjoy 5-6 weeks of vacation where they travel to foreign countries. They meet in at 10 AM and leave at 6 PM sharp. We eat lunch together at restaurants every day and take plenty of breaks. From what I have experienced living 5 years here, life as a developer in Sofia (the most expensive city in Bulgaria) is more comfortable than in the Valley or New York. Professional opportunities in the US are probably better, no doubt about that, but that's another story.
  - nucleardonuts 11y ago
    So many Americans simply don't understand what you're saying. Having lived outside of the US myself for almost 10 years and planning to do so again, it's a world of difference. I'm in love with the entire Iberian peninsula, particularly the southernmost bits. It's poor(er), beautiful in people and in landscape, the weather is nice most of the time, and things are affordable, even by the local sheep farmers. I won't be getting rich, but I'll be living and working on my own terms. Best part is, the wife is amenable to this after the children are out on their own. My wife is in the medical field. She can likely transfer her license and skills over. Heritage-wise, she's from the area, so this is a bonus as well.
  - wavefunction 11y ago
    >>now living in the capital of Bulgaria I know that the price of food, housing etc. is way lower here than in the valley or NYC. Easily 3 times cheaper You're comparing two of the most expensive places in the world to Bulgaria, it's likely that your statement is true of many parts of the US.
    - flexie 11y ago
      But also two of the places in the world that pays developers best. I bet developers in Oklahoma City are paid much less than in SF or NYC in average. So the main point stands.
  - AlexeyBrin 11y ago
    I was talking about the average cost of life in North America, I think Montreal and Toronto can be considered about average. The cost of living in the Valley is not representative for medium to large cities of USA or Canada.
    - flexie 11y ago
      That only weakens the argument. Cost of living in Toronto is nearly 2.5 times higher than Sofia: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/toronto https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/t... But median salary in Toronto is merely around USD 50,000 before tax according to payscale: http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Developer/Salary/df837bdc/Toronto-ON http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Developer/S... That leaves Toronto developers with significantly less than Sofia developers when you adjust for taxes and purchasing power.
YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
>> You don't always get what you pay for with developers or any other services or products. Sometimes, but not always. If you paid people a lot more money you'd get a lot better software. You get what you pay for alright, regardless of whether you recognise it as such or not.

by flexie 11y ago

AlexeyBrin 11y ago

From my traveling experience the cost of food in large cities in Bulgaria and Romania is about the same as the cost of food in Canada. Yes, they have (much) lower wages there and they will accept your low offer because they have no better choice to make more money. Please don't delude yourself in believing you pay them a fair/decent price. You just pay them better than what they could make locally.

flexie 11y ago
Oh, please. From my experience living in the US and now living in the capital of Bulgaria I know that the price of food, housing etc. is way lower here than in the valley or NYC. Easily 3 times cheaper. And the tax is lower too. But don't take my word for it: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/san-francisco https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/s...? A decent full stack developer in his early 20s with no or little college education and 2-4 years of working experience is paid out 25,000 dollars yearly after all taxes and social contributions are paid. Adjusting for living expenses that's like being paid out some $70-80,000 in the valley. Developers here don't have debt, easily save up money, live in nice apartments, drive German luxury cars, enjoy 5-6 weeks of vacation where they travel to foreign countries. They meet in at 10 AM and leave at 6 PM sharp. We eat lunch together at restaurants every day and take plenty of breaks. From what I have experienced living 5 years here, life as a developer in Sofia (the most expensive city in Bulgaria) is more comfortable than in the Valley or New York. Professional opportunities in the US are probably better, no doubt about that, but that's another story.
- nucleardonuts 11y ago
  So many Americans simply don't understand what you're saying. Having lived outside of the US myself for almost 10 years and planning to do so again, it's a world of difference. I'm in love with the entire Iberian peninsula, particularly the southernmost bits. It's poor(er), beautiful in people and in landscape, the weather is nice most of the time, and things are affordable, even by the local sheep farmers. I won't be getting rich, but I'll be living and working on my own terms. Best part is, the wife is amenable to this after the children are out on their own. My wife is in the medical field. She can likely transfer her license and skills over. Heritage-wise, she's from the area, so this is a bonus as well.
- wavefunction 11y ago
  >>now living in the capital of Bulgaria I know that the price of food, housing etc. is way lower here than in the valley or NYC. Easily 3 times cheaper You're comparing two of the most expensive places in the world to Bulgaria, it's likely that your statement is true of many parts of the US.
  - flexie 11y ago
    But also two of the places in the world that pays developers best. I bet developers in Oklahoma City are paid much less than in SF or NYC in average. So the main point stands.
- AlexeyBrin 11y ago
  I was talking about the average cost of life in North America, I think Montreal and Toronto can be considered about average. The cost of living in the Valley is not representative for medium to large cities of USA or Canada.
  - flexie 11y ago
    That only weakens the argument. Cost of living in Toronto is nearly 2.5 times higher than Sofia: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/toronto https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/t... But median salary in Toronto is merely around USD 50,000 before tax according to payscale: http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Developer/Salary/df837bdc/Toronto-ON http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Developer/S... That leaves Toronto developers with significantly less than Sofia developers when you adjust for taxes and purchasing power.

YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago

>> You don't always get what you pay for with developers or any other services or products. Sometimes, but not always. If you paid people a lot more money you'd get a lot better software. You get what you pay for alright, regardless of whether you recognise it as such or not.