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The article was pretty good until this part. >If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that w

The article was pretty good until this part. >If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement and I find myself surprised that no one is calling out the author on it. >It is your duty to send the elevator down. No, it's not. Just like women don't have any duty to ensure that there's an arbitrary number of men working as models and just like black NBA players have no obligation to ensure that there's enough white guys on the team I have no obligation to worry about some arbitrary quotas.

vanderZwan 10y ago
> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich Then the comment does not apply to you. I don't think you quite understand how deep the rabbit hole of this form of "whiteness" goes; as a social construct it implies people from Western Europe or North America. Surely you have experienced how there are people from there who treat Eastern Europe people as less "civilized? Similarly for, say, Mediterranean ethnicities. White male privilege might not (fully) extend to you, but that does not disprove its existence.
- ManlyBread 10y ago
  >> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich >Then the comment does not apply to you. It does, I'm white. The author specifically mentions "white male".
  - wmccullough 10y ago
    But it doesn't. He may not have specified "from North America", but that's what he meant.
    - stray 10y ago
      He's not from North America, is he? So why do you think that's what he meant?
  - danbruc 10y ago
    In the context it was not meant literally as people who are white and male in the same way that blue collar worker does not refer to all workers wearing blue shirts.
    - shrewduser 10y ago
      then "white male" has no meaning, unless you mean "white male and privileged" in which case it's redundant and racist to have the "white male" part
      - delinka 10y ago
        Did you actually mean 'redundant'? If so, you first said 'white male' has no meaning. For it to be redundant in the 'white male and privileged' then it must also mean 'privileged.' I certainly agree on the racist point.
        cicero 10y ago
        He said, unless you mean...privileged. In THAT case, it's redundant.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - hnthrow165038 10y ago
      The problem is that lots of people don't get that nuance, and then carry the thought along thinking it really does literally mean people who are white and male. Memes morph as they're passed along, and a complex sociological understanding of abstract "whiteness" has no chance of surviving into the popular understanding. So for each person like you who means "white male in the abstract sense", there are ten people in the movement who literally hate white males for running the world. When we want to talk about privilege we should say just that: "privileged people". Don't shit on arbitrary subsections of the population.
      - geon 10y ago
  - bgilroy26 10y ago
    Race in the United States has a very particular history I know minstrel shows made it to England, but I don't think they ever made it to the Adriatic Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show?wprov=sfla1
- shrewduser 10y ago
  you, my friend, are a crazy person. privelage is more a factor of socio economics than race when did we start this ridiculous fight against merit and this arbitrary oppression quota system.
  - stray 10y ago
    It started some time about 25-30 years ago as the Cold War was winding down -- and it is a genius move by the upper socioeconomic class to divert our attention from the real issue (it's all about the Benjamins). You see, it is true that in the US the privileged are often white. But that's just noise in the data. Because most of the disadvantaged are also white, and male. But by building up racial tensions in the lower classes with a fundamental attribution error -- those lower classes are divided -- and therefore, not much of a threat to those who are actually privileged. This is the same tactic the ruling class has used for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. Divide and conquer.
    - shrewduser 10y ago
      if i take a look at the data, by most measures asians and jews are much more privileged in america than other europeans. but of course if people started talking about asians and jews the way they talk about white males the racist nature of their argument becomes all too apparent. your useful idiot argument very well may be correct though.
- rjzzleep 10y ago
  This sort of response is typical for someone from NY(yes, this is also racist). I'm white in the US. There is so much ignorance and illiteracy in the way white male racism is portrayed in the USA. It's a beautiful display of how you preach openness and then completely disregard all nuanced world views. You may not have known them then, but you sure as hell don't listen when someone is trying to explain it aaron. A huge portion of people that are on the receiving end of racist systems are white male by your definition. The thing that's so offensive about your kind and the authors kind of attitude is very similar to when some spoiled american female brat who's parents can just easily lash out tens of thousands a year for an ivy league school tells me how would i know anything about discrimination because i'm too white. Theres even a funny 1974s movie about the miserable life of an italian immigrant in switzerland? Pane e cioccolata. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Chocolate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Chocolate But if you really care how about you take a look at interview invites in Germany/Central Europe.
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    I didn't know this movie, interesting
  - vanderZwan 10y ago
    > This sort of response is typical for someone from NY(yes, this is also racist). Gee, assumptions much? I'm a mixed race straight male from the Netherlands. I have definitely been on the receiving end of racism plenty of times in his life, and even then there's still plenty of privileges that I got to enjoy and that I wasn't aware of until my late twenties. These are not binary mutually exclusive concepts. Pointing out privileges is not an accusation, or at least it shouldn't be. It's just saying: you take <x> for granted like a right, but not everyone get's to enjoy that, and the reason they don't is a lack of being male/white/straight or combination of such. Let's put in an effort to make <x> equal for everyone. > tells me how would i know anything about discrimination because i'm too white. Except that this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that privileges exist at many levels, and there's gradations of privilege. GP is a white Eastern European man. This brings a number of societal privileges. It also means he missed the boat on a number of others, and had to endure racism against certain stereotypes. The point is that "whiteness" as a race is a exclusionary social construct that exists in gradations, and not as a yes/no binary thing based on skin. See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnuvllc7IkVDqyy8gymGsmq1Ho&index=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnu...
- ra1n85 10y ago
  This must be satire. Color of skin as a proxy for some form of "cultural original sin" is bad enough. Now we have the self-anointed determining degree of whiteness. What happened to just trying to be a decent human being and helping out those in need of a hand, regardless of race?
  - ThePaco 10y ago
    Nah fuck that man we need to regress back to racism and segregation, but only if their white or men because they owe everyone for all that sweet imaginary privilege.
  - vanderZwan 10y ago
    > Now we have the self-anointed determining degree of whiteness. What do you mean, "now"? I'm not making shit up, this has been going on for ages. Look up how Irish were considered inferior to Brits because they supposedly descended from black people, Italian immigrants being treated even worse, then the Poles... I mean "latino" as a race does not exist outside of the US, it was invented there to single out the Spanish population. It's all a social construct and it's all bullshit Here, let me make things easy for you, Kat Blaque's "white history month" series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnuvllc7IkVDqyy8gymGsmq1Ho&index=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnu...
- wernercd 10y ago
  "White Power"/"White Pride" is racist and "Black power"/"Black Pride" isn't... Minorities can't be racist and everything white people does is automatically racist. "White privilege"... Brought to you by "Black Privilege".
- criddell 10y ago
  > Then the comment does not apply to you. It might. It's possible that even though the path for him was difficult, it may still have been more difficult if he were black.
dracht 10y ago
Indeed. Getting rather tired of these American-centric, white guilt/saviour bloggers that feel the need to inject their social agenda into everything. I don't browse HN to read about how it's my "duty" to repent myself of the eternal sin that is my race. Asians are over-represented in academia and the tech industry, yet this is never brought up as a problem that needs solving (as it shouldn't). This social justice movement is toxic, contradictory and insidious.
interpol_p 10y ago
The author is not assuming you, personally, got an easy ride. Nor is the author dismissing any and all hardships faced by white males during their lifetimes. It is disappointing that you took his comment that way. Acknowledging that it is easier to make it in the tech industry if you are a white male does not mean that it wasn't hard for you. It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. You don't call out the author on such comments because you don't need to read such comments as a personal attack. I worked hard as hell to get into this industry. I came from a poor family. I slept in my car for a long time just to afford to get my first product out. But I had the advantage of being a white male who grew up in a culture where those things gave me an advantage from birth. From the cartoons I watched as a child (far more male heroes than female) to the politicians in my country (mostly white and male), to most of my role models in my field of choice (also white, male). In addition to a million other invisible benefits. I was able to go into technology with confidence and social support that many other groups will not have. > No, it's not. Just like women don't have any duty to ensure that there's an arbitrary number of men working as models and just like black NBA players have no obligation to ensure that there's enough white guys on the team I have no obligation to worry about some arbitrary quotas. I think that's a sad way to look at things. We are not trying to ensure there is an "arbitrary number" of certain types of people working in our field. We are simply acknowledging that there are unnecessary hurdles faced by many groups who may otherwise already be working in our field. It is a wonderful thing to have the power and voice to "send the elevator down" to help those people up.
- jedrek 10y ago
  > It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. Spot on. If the previous poster went to a technical institute in Eastern Europe, I am willing to bet that his classes were at least 90% male.
  - saulr 10y ago
    Likewise for Computer Science classes in Western Europe (and I imagine North America). This is the issue with arbitrary quotas/targets for hiring female engineers - there is a lack of those qualified. I acknowledge that there is a huge disparity between male/female workers in the field, but the issue is far earlier in an aspiring engineer's life than getting a job. STEM subjects have far fewer female students than male - this is the core of the issue. The lack of women in STEM careers is a symptom of this core problem.
almostApatriot1 10y ago
Eastern European Whites are notoriously racist. Are you really trying to say you don't have it easier than a Romani or a Central Asian, let alone a black person who happens to be living in Ukraine?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
lbebber 10y ago
It's not that white males have it easy, but certainly easier than someone born in the same circumstances who also has to fight racism, sexism or other prejudices.
JohnBooty 10y ago
I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement I was about to patiently type out another "hey, you did work hard and you did earn your success - 'white privilege' doesn't mean things were handed to you easily; it means that even though your life has been hard you still got to avoid certain challenges that non-whites face" response. But you know what? This just isn't working. We need better language. I'm a firm believer in the existence of this thing we currently call "white privilege." I understand the meaning and intent of this concept and it's 100% correct; it's absolutely vital that we understand that basic rights we take for granted (for example, walking into a store and not being treated as a potential thief, or having prospective interviewers assume we're professional/literate/presentable) are actually privileges that many people or color don't have. But if the people we're trying to reach hear the term "white privilege" and immediately misunderstand the term in such spectacular ways... you know what? We're doing it wrong.
- obstacle1 10y ago
  >We need better language. No, 'we' don't need that. You want better language so that you can better advocate for your pet cause. There is a big difference between need and want, and also between "everyone" and "this interest group that I identify with".
  - skrebbel 10y ago
    By "we" he meant "this interest group that I identify with", and you know it. No need to heat up the fire under a topic that's already so prone to flamewars.
    - obstacle1 10y ago
      He was responding to someone who was offering a disagreeing POV, on a public web forum that anyone can read or participate in. In that context, typing "we need better language" implies identification with the whole audience, i.e. all readers. 'We' does not mean 'my group of political activists' when used in that way. Hence why the correction is important. Especially given that he was advocating for the redefinition of language in service of a political ideology. If you are going to suggest that 'we need' to clarify and standardize the words we use to refer to things, then you should probably be extremely precise with your own language, no? Otherwise you are just being a patronizing e-tyrant.
Keepo 10y ago
Newspeak version of racism. - it is not racism as long as you are being racist to white people - only white people can be racist It is quite simple
- collyw 10y ago
  Which is indeed quite racist in itself.
DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
> If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I've heard this assertion made many times in recent years, but I don't recall any reasoned arguments for why the listener should accept it as a moral imperative. Since the assertion clearly isn't something we'll all automatically accept, the author may wish to offer a reasoned argument for it. And if he's unable to offer a good one, he should probably reconsider making the assertion.
- vox_mollis 10y ago
  This is actually the biggest issue I have with the intersection of social justice and the technology industry. The concepts of "white privilege" and "stereotype threat" are borne of the non-falsifiable, non-reproducibility "science" of sociology departments everywhere. Here on HN, where people ostensibly require the weight of evidence to accept a concept, I would expect nearly 100% of people to reject this evidence-free, baseless emotional concept immediately out of hand. Yet somehow, this community of rationalists buy into handwaving without any critical thought. We nerds appear to be just as dogmatically religious as those whose ideas we reject on the basis of lack of evidence. A little saddening.
  - DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
    > This is actually the biggest issue I have with the intersection of social justice and the technology industry. The concepts of "white privilege" and "stereotype threat" are borne of the non-falsifiable, non-reproducibility "science" of sociology departments everywhere. I wasn't suggesting that because moral claims are metaphysical in nature, they're automatically wrong or meaningless. Just that because no such arguments are offered at all, the best the author can hope for is that the argument either strikes the listeners as obviously true, or prods the listeners into further consideration which leads them to the same conclusion. My point was simply that the only chance he has of convincing some of us (including me) of his assertion is to actually do the work of presenting a decent argument, which he hasn't done.
- 10y ago
mnglkhn2 10y ago
The reason I agree with you OP is because, as you, I am also from Eastern Europe and I can recognize the same traits in the current "white privilege" arguments to those that plagued Europe mid-century. Like now, during those times there were people arguing that the Jews are taking all the jobs, the good jobs (doctors, engineers, bankers, etc - basically every profession). And the solution was not to advocate for equality but for reverse discrimination, which basically translates into: now you guys leave everything behind, profession, property and translocate somewhere of our choosing. Today is the same path: you guys should feel guilty for being in a white collar job. You are in this job not because of your work but because of your race/skin. The implication is that you should step back and get out. For all the talk about white privilege, I never hear the solutions to it. What is OP supposed to do: not get the job? Not feed his family? How is he supposed to prove that he is aware of his "white privilege"?
- splintercell 10y ago
  > For all the talk about white privilege, I never hear the solutions to it. What is OP supposed to do: not get the job? Not feed his family? How is he supposed to prove that he is aware of his "white privilege"? The world is divided among two groups of people: people who live for themselves, and people who live for the validation of others. The latter group believes that changing 'language' results in changing reality. If you want to lose weight, then get a funny mirror which shows you that you're skinny and that would result in you somehow working towards it and becoming skinny. That reality is merely a 'social construct' so modification of the social construct is all what you need to permeate those changes into other parts of the 'reality'. It's this group of people who believe that minorities aren't succeeding because they don't get enough validation from others. This confuses most of the other people who never cared for this validation. So people like you or OP says, "But I never needed other people's validation", and these people respond "Oh because you always got the validation, that's why you don't think anyone needs validation". To answer your question, these people want you to 'validate' minorities. Make it look like that they're successful and apparently that will make them successful. If you ask me, that just results in creation of pathetic individuals who will never achieve anything real in life.
- hox 10y ago
JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Well, the idea of "white male privilege" is that no matter how hard you may have had it as a white male, it was always easier than had you been a non white male. It doesn't matter how hard you worked or work, your accomplishments will always have the stank of "white male privilege" in the eyes of everyone non white male.
- reefoctopus 10y ago
  >it was always easier than had you been a non white male. Really? You don't think there are advantages to being a woman? That my URM neighbor who got into Harvard law with a 164 LSAT would have had things easier if he were white? Your statement is incredibly racist.
  - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
    Read all the other comments. I basically said the same thing. White Male Privilege means White males have it easier than everyone else, no matter how hard they have it/had it. That's the definition of "white male privilege". I'm not being racist one bit. Just stating a definition.
    - shrewduser 10y ago
      is it an advantage for a white male from a poor disadvantaged background with little opportunities has to get higher marks to get into a good college than a minority from an affluent background who has been given every opportunity?
      - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
        My father was the divorced, alcoholic, greasy flat-rate mechanic, not the suit wearing lawyer[1]. He certainly wasn't paying for any college; I payed for it... finally ... years after my high school peers had already graduated. However, I've always been told because I'm white it was easier because, well, I'm white and certainly some doors were opened for me that never would have been otherwise. My original comment is defining this mentality. Sure it was harsh, but it wasn't to be racist, it was to express ... frustration? There needs to be a better way of describing how some people are privileged and others are not. I mean, in some ways, sure, I was privileged. My father had steady work so we ate and had shelter. Does it mean that anything I've accomplished should stink because I'm white male? But, we can't even talk about how that's not fair because slavery gets brought up. Because the oppression of African Americans gets brought up. Because women don't make as much as men gets brought up. Etc. Anything unfair to white males will never be truly unfair. Any rags to middle class story of a white male will always be tainted with, "well, of course, he's white ain't he"? [1] He was good to me. I miss him dearly.
osweiller 10y ago
I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. I grew up in a small, very blue collar town (the sort that most people never escape). We lived on social assistance, at least until my mother killed herself and I went to live in foster homes. Eventually my father -- who later died from asbestos related cancer from his job -- let me move into a spare bedroom at his girlfriend's house. "White male privilege". I "made it", so to speak, purely on the backs of a couple of teachers who tried really hard, and the luck of having interests and aptitudes perfect for the time in a burgeoning, lucrative industry. But I certainly did not have a privileged upbringing.
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  Do you think that no women or minorities grew up in a small blue collar town, lived on social assistance, lost their parents, lived in a foster home? The concept of privilege does not mean "you did not earn what you have." It means "other people with circumstances like yours were prevented from earning what you have, because of their gender or ethnicity." It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly.
  - splintercell 10y ago
    > It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly. I really hate these sales pitch documents "Visit our showroom, have some food, and you don't have to buy anything". Just answer the question, what exactly are you looking people to do?
  - osweiller 10y ago
    Do you think that no... I have not assumed anyone else's privilege, or lack of privilege. I haven't made assumptions, demanding group guilt or deference, based upon a simplistic caricature or stereotype. It's not about tearing anyone down. I read a statement telling me to remember all of the privilege I have enjoyed since birth. My experience differs, and these sorts of simplified claims fail (the same sort of simplification/see what you want that is the root of racism). Countering sexism or racism or inequality by attempting to force feed sexism, racism and inequality will never move the conversation forward. It is never useful.
kelukelugames 10y ago
Hear hear! My grandparents fight the Nazis and never owned any slaves and now all of the sudden I'm a racist for saying all lives matter?
elbear 10y ago
What rubs me the wrong way are the two phrases: "it's your responsibility" and "it's your duty". I would prefer if he didn't tell me what my duties were. Instead he could try to motivate me in a positive way to think of these people who need help. Please use positive motivation, not negative one.
cheez 10y ago
White privilege is reduced sentencing for white people, as compared to people of colour and things like that. My personal opinion is not that you should bring yourself down and suffer for people of colour, but just know that you have benefited from these little effects throughout your entire life. As Warren Buffet said, these "snowball" into a pretty comfortable life. I was a 17 year old non-white guy, minding my own business, and I was detained for matching a description. Who? Why? Nope, just matching a description. I was in the system now. Every time I have to deal with the system, I fight to make sure there are no traces. And every few years, I have to do so. Meanwhile, my white friends who work in the financial industry transport drugs across state lines and never have any issues, even if they are pulled over. I know, because I travelled with them once and I was the only one who was questioned for any length of time. What the actual fuck? I mean, it was a nice trip, but seriously? I don't even know where to buy drugs. This is what life is like for someone who isn't white. Over and over, day in and day out. It honestly gets really tiring. I'm not complaining, it just makes my success that much sweeter.
a-saleh 10y ago
> Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement and I find myself surprised that no one is calling out the author on it. I wouldn't say you got an easy ride, just that your ride was easier than some others had it? It might be a cultural thing, but I know that some of my neighbours wouldn't consider me white. Probably because I didn't have the time to shave and I really like my keffiyeh arround my neck and suddenly I might get these looks of "What does this stinking arab do on my street?" Based on this, I think I agree with the notion that it is my responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. And I don't mean in "we need more quotas" sense, more in "when you see BS, call on it". I think this is why he mentions "I am making 135 KCHF per year. That was my current salary. How about you? And you? The more we speak out, the less inequality there will be." Based on this, I think I can empathise.
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  Quotas are bad! So is harassment. No reason we can't speak out against both.
- ManlyBread 10y ago
  >I wouldn't say you got an easy ride, just that your ride was easier than some others had it? You're talking to a guy who lives in a country where people who work minimal wage jobs earn about 3900$ per year. As a Junior programmer I earn about 7500$ per year and I'm considered to be "lucky"... except the cost of living is still about 35% of my salary. A programmer with a lot of experience under his belt can expect to be paid between 15k-45k per year. While food is relatively cheap, I still have to share an apartment with two other people whom I don't even know (renting a flat on my own would cost at least 50% of my income), I have to save for a few months to buy a car or a computer (not even new ones, if I want anything decent I have to buy used things). Buying a place for myself would mean I'd have to pay for a mortgage for the next 20 years. If I would like to work abroad I have to keep in mind that people think very little of us and that the only thing we've got going for us is that we either take the jobs no one else wants or that we can be paid less than the native citizens. But please, do tell me my ride is easier than getting free money and being hired because you're not white.
frostymarvelous 10y ago
You won't understand because you fall in that category. But trust when it's said. You avoid certain challenges because of your race and sex and that is a given. That said, that doesn't mean that you sailed through life on a magic carpet with things handed to you.
- dradtke 10y ago
  > that doesn't mean that you sailed through life on a magic carpet with things handed to you. See, this is why people get frustrated when people tell them to check their privilege. White men are told all the time that they have life so easy, but almost never have their own frustrations or life experiences validated. I'm very grateful for everything I've had relatively easy in life (loving parents who never divorced and not worrying about having dinner each night, among others), but life still isn't easy, and it's frustrating feeling like there's nothing to complain about because of how you were born.
  - frostymarvelous 10y ago
    You're a wise man my friend.
ausjke 10y ago
The whole story is a decent read. I actually read from top to the bottom. As long as the whole idea makes sense, no need to pick a few sentences and enforce political correctness on them, that just missed the point in my opinion. He is not a politician and is speaking for himself, and he has the right to say that I guess. Overall, a great write!
skywhopper 10y ago
You had it easier than someone with your original circumstances who was a minority or a woman, is the point. You are highly unlikely to be sexually harassed or threatened on a regular basis. You are highly unlikely to be insulted, questioned, or dismissed because of the color of your skin. Other people aren't so lucky. If you feel upset about this extremely mild general statement about white men, try multiplying that by 10, add it to every part of your life, and you might start to experience what people who don't look like you live with. It's not about arbitrary quotas. An industry overwhelmingly populated by white men is missing out on 90% of the talent in the world. Programming ain't the NBA.
StargazyPi 10y ago
I respectfully disagree; even though the (often inaccurate) generalisation of white male privilege does not necessarily apply to you, the tech world has an inclusion problem along many different lines: education level, affluence, race, gender to name but a few. I tend to think that those of us who've made it into the industry, whilst pushing against one or more of those biases, (including you in this, because of your socio-economic background) should be helping others from similar situations enter the field. Just because we, personally, have made it, doesn't mean we shouldn't make the path easier for others.
naasking 10y ago
> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. "White privilege" is simply the (mostly reasonable) claim that your journey probably would have been even tougher if you were a black person from your exact same background.
rayvd 10y ago
Well said. Thank you.
blisspigeon 10y ago
Listen, when I went to high school, there were only a couple of "computer classes" available and I took all of them. When I graduated and went to college, my parents were lower-middle-class and I was a white male, so I didn't get any kind of scholarships or grants or whatever. But my parents had put aside some money and I worked really hard to get through as fast as I could, so I graduated without any debt. Then I got a good job, worked harder, and eventually went back to school. I worked full-time to pay for my masters and phd, and when I graduated I jumped back into another job. The whole time I was putting aside 10-20% of my salary and the result is that now I'm semi-retired. I get to choose what I work on. There ain't no privlege here. Nobody ever sat me down and said "this is what you need to do". Hell, nobody ever cared about that, just whether or not I could get stuff done. I never had any big friends throwing me tips and jobs like that guy at Sea World training the seals to play horns. I never begged some "angel" to give me money. When I hit a wall, I banged my head against it until I got through. When everyone else was going to "conferences" and "training classes" on the company dollar, I was back at my desk, pounding out code and reading the f'ing manual. And when somebody says I have a duty to make somebody's life easier, I want to ask them where they were when I was sweatting blood? You want a new "language" for "privlege"? How about spelling it L-A-Z-Y? Anyone could do what I did. It isn't hard. You just have to put in the work and for Goddess's sake stop whining.
- softawre 10y ago
  I agree with you for the most part. I'd just like to point out, since I also consider my family lower-middle class, that most lower-middle class families have no money whatsoever for college. Most of us in that situation took loans. And if we did OK, we paid them off. No big deal, just another minor obstacle.
stegosaurus 10y ago
I think the issue with 'white privilege' as a term is that people forget that the vast majority of people are not 'alright Jack'. It feels like an attack, like saying 'you have too much, give me some'. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates might have won the game. Someone with $5M might have. But your average 'privileged white male'? Even if we restrict it to the middle class, there's not that much to give up, you know? It's not as if we're all paid up on the mortgage with the retirement fund sorted and now we're just drilling away for more hookers and blow. I have real issues with the rhetoric that seems to be cropping up as of late as it seems to push the focus away from the capitalist elite that own everything, and on to those who are in the same order of magnitude of wealth, battling away to keep their lives together. We are friends, not enemies.
kailuowang 10y ago
> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich Yes, you earned your success, but being from a poor Eastern Europe family doesn't say anything about whether or not you experienced a "white privilege". Try imagine yourself being a colored female from a poor Eastern Europe family might help a bit.
donohoe 10y ago
I really just want to echo what johnBooty (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11571398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11571398) said and add my 2 cents. Short version: I'm Irish, former illegal immigrant, naturalized citizen, pay my taxes, have a family, and consider myself a moderate success etc. I worked very, very hard to get to here I am now, but I guarantee you that that fact that I am white (and spoke English as a first language helped too) played its part too. It exists, it is a thing, and we're obligated to do our best to make things better for everyone along thew way.
odonnellryan 10y ago
I don't understand this mentality. I see it all the time. You're a part of a community. You've taken advantage of the community in the past: there is always an obligation to contribute positively back to the community. The author is saying they think diversity is positive to the community. You can argue against that point, but you aren't: you're saying contributing is bad.
odonnellryan 10y ago
I don't understand this mentality. I see it all the time. It isn't black and white. You're a part of a community. You've taken advantage of the community in the past: there is always an obligation to contribute positively back to the community. The author is saying they think diversity is positive to the community. You can argue against that point, but you aren't: you're saying contributing is bad.
morgante 10y ago
That statement, along with the clueless repetition that "women are paid 70% of what men are paid" really turned me off from the piece. I agree that racism and sexism are problems. I definitely try to not be racist and sexist myself. I even try to actively correct for my own unconscious bias. But it's not my responsibility to fix sexism in the tech industry. I'd rather focus on some other problems which I think are more serious—global extreme poverty, for example—and that shouldn't be a moral failing on my part.
njharman 10y ago
Are there lots of females in the industry where you are? I wouldn't be surprised if there were way more than in west. It seems (from my limited outsider view) that communism/socialism was much more egalitarian regarding gender and some of that carries over post USSR. Are there lots of ethnic minorities in the industry where you are? Being a white male doesn't mean it was easy for you or you auto-success. It means it was easier for you compared to non-ethic majority, non-males. source: I am 45 yr old white male
grifter2000 10y ago
agreed. getting tired of seeing this self-loathing nonsense and unabashed racism towards whites that's made it from tumblr vogue to mainstream media. it was no easy ride being poor and white in a black neighbourhood, either.

vanderZwan 10y ago

> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich Then the comment does not apply to you. I don't think you quite understand how deep the rabbit hole of this form of "whiteness" goes; as a social construct it implies people from Western Europe or North America. Surely you have experienced how there are people from there who treat Eastern Europe people as less "civilized? Similarly for, say, Mediterranean ethnicities. White male privilege might not (fully) extend to you, but that does not disprove its existence.

ManlyBread 10y ago
>> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich >Then the comment does not apply to you. It does, I'm white. The author specifically mentions "white male".
- wmccullough 10y ago
  But it doesn't. He may not have specified "from North America", but that's what he meant.
  - stray 10y ago
    He's not from North America, is he? So why do you think that's what he meant?
- danbruc 10y ago
  In the context it was not meant literally as people who are white and male in the same way that blue collar worker does not refer to all workers wearing blue shirts.
  - shrewduser 10y ago
    then "white male" has no meaning, unless you mean "white male and privileged" in which case it's redundant and racist to have the "white male" part
    - delinka 10y ago
      Did you actually mean 'redundant'? If so, you first said 'white male' has no meaning. For it to be redundant in the 'white male and privileged' then it must also mean 'privileged.' I certainly agree on the racist point.
      - cicero 10y ago
        He said, unless you mean...privileged. In THAT case, it's redundant.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  - hnthrow165038 10y ago
    The problem is that lots of people don't get that nuance, and then carry the thought along thinking it really does literally mean people who are white and male. Memes morph as they're passed along, and a complex sociological understanding of abstract "whiteness" has no chance of surviving into the popular understanding. So for each person like you who means "white male in the abstract sense", there are ten people in the movement who literally hate white males for running the world. When we want to talk about privilege we should say just that: "privileged people". Don't shit on arbitrary subsections of the population.
    - geon 10y ago
- bgilroy26 10y ago
  Race in the United States has a very particular history I know minstrel shows made it to England, but I don't think they ever made it to the Adriatic Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show?wprov=sfla1
shrewduser 10y ago
you, my friend, are a crazy person. privelage is more a factor of socio economics than race when did we start this ridiculous fight against merit and this arbitrary oppression quota system.
- stray 10y ago
  It started some time about 25-30 years ago as the Cold War was winding down -- and it is a genius move by the upper socioeconomic class to divert our attention from the real issue (it's all about the Benjamins). You see, it is true that in the US the privileged are often white. But that's just noise in the data. Because most of the disadvantaged are also white, and male. But by building up racial tensions in the lower classes with a fundamental attribution error -- those lower classes are divided -- and therefore, not much of a threat to those who are actually privileged. This is the same tactic the ruling class has used for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. Divide and conquer.
  - shrewduser 10y ago
    if i take a look at the data, by most measures asians and jews are much more privileged in america than other europeans. but of course if people started talking about asians and jews the way they talk about white males the racist nature of their argument becomes all too apparent. your useful idiot argument very well may be correct though.
rjzzleep 10y ago
This sort of response is typical for someone from NY(yes, this is also racist). I'm white in the US. There is so much ignorance and illiteracy in the way white male racism is portrayed in the USA. It's a beautiful display of how you preach openness and then completely disregard all nuanced world views. You may not have known them then, but you sure as hell don't listen when someone is trying to explain it aaron. A huge portion of people that are on the receiving end of racist systems are white male by your definition. The thing that's so offensive about your kind and the authors kind of attitude is very similar to when some spoiled american female brat who's parents can just easily lash out tens of thousands a year for an ivy league school tells me how would i know anything about discrimination because i'm too white. Theres even a funny 1974s movie about the miserable life of an italian immigrant in switzerland? Pane e cioccolata. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Chocolate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Chocolate But if you really care how about you take a look at interview invites in Germany/Central Europe.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  I didn't know this movie, interesting
- vanderZwan 10y ago
  > This sort of response is typical for someone from NY(yes, this is also racist). Gee, assumptions much? I'm a mixed race straight male from the Netherlands. I have definitely been on the receiving end of racism plenty of times in his life, and even then there's still plenty of privileges that I got to enjoy and that I wasn't aware of until my late twenties. These are not binary mutually exclusive concepts. Pointing out privileges is not an accusation, or at least it shouldn't be. It's just saying: you take <x> for granted like a right, but not everyone get's to enjoy that, and the reason they don't is a lack of being male/white/straight or combination of such. Let's put in an effort to make <x> equal for everyone. > tells me how would i know anything about discrimination because i'm too white. Except that this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that privileges exist at many levels, and there's gradations of privilege. GP is a white Eastern European man. This brings a number of societal privileges. It also means he missed the boat on a number of others, and had to endure racism against certain stereotypes. The point is that "whiteness" as a race is a exclusionary social construct that exists in gradations, and not as a yes/no binary thing based on skin. See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnuvllc7IkVDqyy8gymGsmq1Ho&index=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnu...
ra1n85 10y ago
This must be satire. Color of skin as a proxy for some form of "cultural original sin" is bad enough. Now we have the self-anointed determining degree of whiteness. What happened to just trying to be a decent human being and helping out those in need of a hand, regardless of race?
- ThePaco 10y ago
  Nah fuck that man we need to regress back to racism and segregation, but only if their white or men because they owe everyone for all that sweet imaginary privilege.
- vanderZwan 10y ago
  > Now we have the self-anointed determining degree of whiteness. What do you mean, "now"? I'm not making shit up, this has been going on for ages. Look up how Irish were considered inferior to Brits because they supposedly descended from black people, Italian immigrants being treated even worse, then the Poles... I mean "latino" as a race does not exist outside of the US, it was invented there to single out the Spanish population. It's all a social construct and it's all bullshit Here, let me make things easy for you, Kat Blaque's "white history month" series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnuvllc7IkVDqyy8gymGsmq1Ho&index=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHct5IHxrA&list=PL6orzhPfnu...
wernercd 10y ago
"White Power"/"White Pride" is racist and "Black power"/"Black Pride" isn't... Minorities can't be racist and everything white people does is automatically racist. "White privilege"... Brought to you by "Black Privilege".
criddell 10y ago
> Then the comment does not apply to you. It might. It's possible that even though the path for him was difficult, it may still have been more difficult if he were black.

dracht 10y ago

Indeed. Getting rather tired of these American-centric, white guilt/saviour bloggers that feel the need to inject their social agenda into everything. I don't browse HN to read about how it's my "duty" to repent myself of the eternal sin that is my race. Asians are over-represented in academia and the tech industry, yet this is never brought up as a problem that needs solving (as it shouldn't). This social justice movement is toxic, contradictory and insidious.

interpol_p 10y ago

The author is not assuming you, personally, got an easy ride. Nor is the author dismissing any and all hardships faced by white males during their lifetimes. It is disappointing that you took his comment that way. Acknowledging that it is easier to make it in the tech industry if you are a white male does not mean that it wasn't hard for you. It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. You don't call out the author on such comments because you don't need to read such comments as a personal attack. I worked hard as hell to get into this industry. I came from a poor family. I slept in my car for a long time just to afford to get my first product out. But I had the advantage of being a white male who grew up in a culture where those things gave me an advantage from birth. From the cartoons I watched as a child (far more male heroes than female) to the politicians in my country (mostly white and male), to most of my role models in my field of choice (also white, male). In addition to a million other invisible benefits. I was able to go into technology with confidence and social support that many other groups will not have. > No, it's not. Just like women don't have any duty to ensure that there's an arbitrary number of men working as models and just like black NBA players have no obligation to ensure that there's enough white guys on the team I have no obligation to worry about some arbitrary quotas. I think that's a sad way to look at things. We are not trying to ensure there is an "arbitrary number" of certain types of people working in our field. We are simply acknowledging that there are unnecessary hurdles faced by many groups who may otherwise already be working in our field. It is a wonderful thing to have the power and voice to "send the elevator down" to help those people up.

jedrek 10y ago
> It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. Spot on. If the previous poster went to a technical institute in Eastern Europe, I am willing to bet that his classes were at least 90% male.
- saulr 10y ago
  Likewise for Computer Science classes in Western Europe (and I imagine North America). This is the issue with arbitrary quotas/targets for hiring female engineers - there is a lack of those qualified. I acknowledge that there is a huge disparity between male/female workers in the field, but the issue is far earlier in an aspiring engineer's life than getting a job. STEM subjects have far fewer female students than male - this is the core of the issue. The lack of women in STEM careers is a symptom of this core problem.

almostApatriot1 10y ago

Eastern European Whites are notoriously racist. Are you really trying to say you don't have it easier than a Romani or a Central Asian, let alone a black person who happens to be living in Ukraine?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

lbebber 10y ago

It's not that white males have it easy, but certainly easier than someone born in the same circumstances who also has to fight racism, sexism or other prejudices.

JohnBooty 10y ago

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement I was about to patiently type out another "hey, you did work hard and you did earn your success - 'white privilege' doesn't mean things were handed to you easily; it means that even though your life has been hard you still got to avoid certain challenges that non-whites face" response. But you know what? This just isn't working. We need better language. I'm a firm believer in the existence of this thing we currently call "white privilege." I understand the meaning and intent of this concept and it's 100% correct; it's absolutely vital that we understand that basic rights we take for granted (for example, walking into a store and not being treated as a potential thief, or having prospective interviewers assume we're professional/literate/presentable) are actually privileges that many people or color don't have. But if the people we're trying to reach hear the term "white privilege" and immediately misunderstand the term in such spectacular ways... you know what? We're doing it wrong.

obstacle1 10y ago
>We need better language. No, 'we' don't need that. You want better language so that you can better advocate for your pet cause. There is a big difference between need and want, and also between "everyone" and "this interest group that I identify with".
- skrebbel 10y ago
  By "we" he meant "this interest group that I identify with", and you know it. No need to heat up the fire under a topic that's already so prone to flamewars.
  - obstacle1 10y ago
    He was responding to someone who was offering a disagreeing POV, on a public web forum that anyone can read or participate in. In that context, typing "we need better language" implies identification with the whole audience, i.e. all readers. 'We' does not mean 'my group of political activists' when used in that way. Hence why the correction is important. Especially given that he was advocating for the redefinition of language in service of a political ideology. If you are going to suggest that 'we need' to clarify and standardize the words we use to refer to things, then you should probably be extremely precise with your own language, no? Otherwise you are just being a patronizing e-tyrant.

Keepo 10y ago

Newspeak version of racism. - it is not racism as long as you are being racist to white people - only white people can be racist It is quite simple

collyw 10y ago
Which is indeed quite racist in itself.

DoofusOfDeath 10y ago

> If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I've heard this assertion made many times in recent years, but I don't recall any reasoned arguments for why the listener should accept it as a moral imperative. Since the assertion clearly isn't something we'll all automatically accept, the author may wish to offer a reasoned argument for it. And if he's unable to offer a good one, he should probably reconsider making the assertion.

vox_mollis 10y ago
This is actually the biggest issue I have with the intersection of social justice and the technology industry. The concepts of "white privilege" and "stereotype threat" are borne of the non-falsifiable, non-reproducibility "science" of sociology departments everywhere. Here on HN, where people ostensibly require the weight of evidence to accept a concept, I would expect nearly 100% of people to reject this evidence-free, baseless emotional concept immediately out of hand. Yet somehow, this community of rationalists buy into handwaving without any critical thought. We nerds appear to be just as dogmatically religious as those whose ideas we reject on the basis of lack of evidence. A little saddening.
- DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
  > This is actually the biggest issue I have with the intersection of social justice and the technology industry. The concepts of "white privilege" and "stereotype threat" are borne of the non-falsifiable, non-reproducibility "science" of sociology departments everywhere. I wasn't suggesting that because moral claims are metaphysical in nature, they're automatically wrong or meaningless. Just that because no such arguments are offered at all, the best the author can hope for is that the argument either strikes the listeners as obviously true, or prods the listeners into further consideration which leads them to the same conclusion. My point was simply that the only chance he has of convincing some of us (including me) of his assertion is to actually do the work of presenting a decent argument, which he hasn't done.
10y ago

mnglkhn2 10y ago

The reason I agree with you OP is because, as you, I am also from Eastern Europe and I can recognize the same traits in the current "white privilege" arguments to those that plagued Europe mid-century. Like now, during those times there were people arguing that the Jews are taking all the jobs, the good jobs (doctors, engineers, bankers, etc - basically every profession). And the solution was not to advocate for equality but for reverse discrimination, which basically translates into: now you guys leave everything behind, profession, property and translocate somewhere of our choosing. Today is the same path: you guys should feel guilty for being in a white collar job. You are in this job not because of your work but because of your race/skin. The implication is that you should step back and get out. For all the talk about white privilege, I never hear the solutions to it. What is OP supposed to do: not get the job? Not feed his family? How is he supposed to prove that he is aware of his "white privilege"?

splintercell 10y ago
> For all the talk about white privilege, I never hear the solutions to it. What is OP supposed to do: not get the job? Not feed his family? How is he supposed to prove that he is aware of his "white privilege"? The world is divided among two groups of people: people who live for themselves, and people who live for the validation of others. The latter group believes that changing 'language' results in changing reality. If you want to lose weight, then get a funny mirror which shows you that you're skinny and that would result in you somehow working towards it and becoming skinny. That reality is merely a 'social construct' so modification of the social construct is all what you need to permeate those changes into other parts of the 'reality'. It's this group of people who believe that minorities aren't succeeding because they don't get enough validation from others. This confuses most of the other people who never cared for this validation. So people like you or OP says, "But I never needed other people's validation", and these people respond "Oh because you always got the validation, that's why you don't think anyone needs validation". To answer your question, these people want you to 'validate' minorities. Make it look like that they're successful and apparently that will make them successful. If you ask me, that just results in creation of pathetic individuals who will never achieve anything real in life.
hox 10y ago

JustSomeNobody 10y ago

Well, the idea of "white male privilege" is that no matter how hard you may have had it as a white male, it was always easier than had you been a non white male. It doesn't matter how hard you worked or work, your accomplishments will always have the stank of "white male privilege" in the eyes of everyone non white male.

reefoctopus 10y ago
>it was always easier than had you been a non white male. Really? You don't think there are advantages to being a woman? That my URM neighbor who got into Harvard law with a 164 LSAT would have had things easier if he were white? Your statement is incredibly racist.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Read all the other comments. I basically said the same thing. White Male Privilege means White males have it easier than everyone else, no matter how hard they have it/had it. That's the definition of "white male privilege". I'm not being racist one bit. Just stating a definition.
  - shrewduser 10y ago
    is it an advantage for a white male from a poor disadvantaged background with little opportunities has to get higher marks to get into a good college than a minority from an affluent background who has been given every opportunity?
    - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
      My father was the divorced, alcoholic, greasy flat-rate mechanic, not the suit wearing lawyer[1]. He certainly wasn't paying for any college; I payed for it... finally ... years after my high school peers had already graduated. However, I've always been told because I'm white it was easier because, well, I'm white and certainly some doors were opened for me that never would have been otherwise. My original comment is defining this mentality. Sure it was harsh, but it wasn't to be racist, it was to express ... frustration? There needs to be a better way of describing how some people are privileged and others are not. I mean, in some ways, sure, I was privileged. My father had steady work so we ate and had shelter. Does it mean that anything I've accomplished should stink because I'm white male? But, we can't even talk about how that's not fair because slavery gets brought up. Because the oppression of African Americans gets brought up. Because women don't make as much as men gets brought up. Etc. Anything unfair to white males will never be truly unfair. Any rags to middle class story of a white male will always be tainted with, "well, of course, he's white ain't he"? [1] He was good to me. I miss him dearly.

osweiller 10y ago

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. I grew up in a small, very blue collar town (the sort that most people never escape). We lived on social assistance, at least until my mother killed herself and I went to live in foster homes. Eventually my father -- who later died from asbestos related cancer from his job -- let me move into a spare bedroom at his girlfriend's house. "White male privilege". I "made it", so to speak, purely on the backs of a couple of teachers who tried really hard, and the luck of having interests and aptitudes perfect for the time in a burgeoning, lucrative industry. But I certainly did not have a privileged upbringing.

snowwrestler 10y ago
Do you think that no women or minorities grew up in a small blue collar town, lived on social assistance, lost their parents, lived in a foster home? The concept of privilege does not mean "you did not earn what you have." It means "other people with circumstances like yours were prevented from earning what you have, because of their gender or ethnicity." It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly.
- splintercell 10y ago
  > It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing that people with success can help those who are being denied success, unfairly. I really hate these sales pitch documents "Visit our showroom, have some food, and you don't have to buy anything". Just answer the question, what exactly are you looking people to do?
- osweiller 10y ago
  Do you think that no... I have not assumed anyone else's privilege, or lack of privilege. I haven't made assumptions, demanding group guilt or deference, based upon a simplistic caricature or stereotype. It's not about tearing anyone down. I read a statement telling me to remember all of the privilege I have enjoyed since birth. My experience differs, and these sorts of simplified claims fail (the same sort of simplification/see what you want that is the root of racism). Countering sexism or racism or inequality by attempting to force feed sexism, racism and inequality will never move the conversation forward. It is never useful.

kelukelugames 10y ago

Hear hear! My grandparents fight the Nazis and never owned any slaves and now all of the sudden I'm a racist for saying all lives matter?

elbear 10y ago

What rubs me the wrong way are the two phrases: "it's your responsibility" and "it's your duty". I would prefer if he didn't tell me what my duties were. Instead he could try to motivate me in a positive way to think of these people who need help. Please use positive motivation, not negative one.

cheez 10y ago

White privilege is reduced sentencing for white people, as compared to people of colour and things like that. My personal opinion is not that you should bring yourself down and suffer for people of colour, but just know that you have benefited from these little effects throughout your entire life. As Warren Buffet said, these "snowball" into a pretty comfortable life. I was a 17 year old non-white guy, minding my own business, and I was detained for matching a description. Who? Why? Nope, just matching a description. I was in the system now. Every time I have to deal with the system, I fight to make sure there are no traces. And every few years, I have to do so. Meanwhile, my white friends who work in the financial industry transport drugs across state lines and never have any issues, even if they are pulled over. I know, because I travelled with them once and I was the only one who was questioned for any length of time. What the actual fuck? I mean, it was a nice trip, but seriously? I don't even know where to buy drugs. This is what life is like for someone who isn't white. Over and over, day in and day out. It honestly gets really tiring. I'm not complaining, it just makes my success that much sweeter.

a-saleh 10y ago

> Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement and I find myself surprised that no one is calling out the author on it. I wouldn't say you got an easy ride, just that your ride was easier than some others had it? It might be a cultural thing, but I know that some of my neighbours wouldn't consider me white. Probably because I didn't have the time to shave and I really like my keffiyeh arround my neck and suddenly I might get these looks of "What does this stinking arab do on my street?" Based on this, I think I agree with the notion that it is my responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. And I don't mean in "we need more quotas" sense, more in "when you see BS, call on it". I think this is why he mentions "I am making 135 KCHF per year. That was my current salary. How about you? And you? The more we speak out, the less inequality there will be." Based on this, I think I can empathise.

kelukelugames 10y ago
Quotas are bad! So is harassment. No reason we can't speak out against both.
ManlyBread 10y ago
>I wouldn't say you got an easy ride, just that your ride was easier than some others had it? You're talking to a guy who lives in a country where people who work minimal wage jobs earn about 3900$ per year. As a Junior programmer I earn about 7500$ per year and I'm considered to be "lucky"... except the cost of living is still about 35% of my salary. A programmer with a lot of experience under his belt can expect to be paid between 15k-45k per year. While food is relatively cheap, I still have to share an apartment with two other people whom I don't even know (renting a flat on my own would cost at least 50% of my income), I have to save for a few months to buy a car or a computer (not even new ones, if I want anything decent I have to buy used things). Buying a place for myself would mean I'd have to pay for a mortgage for the next 20 years. If I would like to work abroad I have to keep in mind that people think very little of us and that the only thing we've got going for us is that we either take the jobs no one else wants or that we can be paid less than the native citizens. But please, do tell me my ride is easier than getting free money and being hired because you're not white.

frostymarvelous 10y ago

You won't understand because you fall in that category. But trust when it's said. You avoid certain challenges because of your race and sex and that is a given. That said, that doesn't mean that you sailed through life on a magic carpet with things handed to you.

dradtke 10y ago
> that doesn't mean that you sailed through life on a magic carpet with things handed to you. See, this is why people get frustrated when people tell them to check their privilege. White men are told all the time that they have life so easy, but almost never have their own frustrations or life experiences validated. I'm very grateful for everything I've had relatively easy in life (loving parents who never divorced and not worrying about having dinner each night, among others), but life still isn't easy, and it's frustrating feeling like there's nothing to complain about because of how you were born.
- frostymarvelous 10y ago
  You're a wise man my friend.

ausjke 10y ago

The whole story is a decent read. I actually read from top to the bottom. As long as the whole idea makes sense, no need to pick a few sentences and enforce political correctness on them, that just missed the point in my opinion. He is not a politician and is speaking for himself, and he has the right to say that I guess. Overall, a great write!

skywhopper 10y ago

You had it easier than someone with your original circumstances who was a minority or a woman, is the point. You are highly unlikely to be sexually harassed or threatened on a regular basis. You are highly unlikely to be insulted, questioned, or dismissed because of the color of your skin. Other people aren't so lucky. If you feel upset about this extremely mild general statement about white men, try multiplying that by 10, add it to every part of your life, and you might start to experience what people who don't look like you live with. It's not about arbitrary quotas. An industry overwhelmingly populated by white men is missing out on 90% of the talent in the world. Programming ain't the NBA.

StargazyPi 10y ago

I respectfully disagree; even though the (often inaccurate) generalisation of white male privilege does not necessarily apply to you, the tech world has an inclusion problem along many different lines: education level, affluence, race, gender to name but a few. I tend to think that those of us who've made it into the industry, whilst pushing against one or more of those biases, (including you in this, because of your socio-economic background) should be helping others from similar situations enter the field. Just because we, personally, have made it, doesn't mean we shouldn't make the path easier for others.

naasking 10y ago

> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. "White privilege" is simply the (mostly reasonable) claim that your journey probably would have been even tougher if you were a black person from your exact same background.

rayvd 10y ago

Well said. Thank you.

blisspigeon 10y ago

Listen, when I went to high school, there were only a couple of "computer classes" available and I took all of them. When I graduated and went to college, my parents were lower-middle-class and I was a white male, so I didn't get any kind of scholarships or grants or whatever. But my parents had put aside some money and I worked really hard to get through as fast as I could, so I graduated without any debt. Then I got a good job, worked harder, and eventually went back to school. I worked full-time to pay for my masters and phd, and when I graduated I jumped back into another job. The whole time I was putting aside 10-20% of my salary and the result is that now I'm semi-retired. I get to choose what I work on. There ain't no privlege here. Nobody ever sat me down and said "this is what you need to do". Hell, nobody ever cared about that, just whether or not I could get stuff done. I never had any big friends throwing me tips and jobs like that guy at Sea World training the seals to play horns. I never begged some "angel" to give me money. When I hit a wall, I banged my head against it until I got through. When everyone else was going to "conferences" and "training classes" on the company dollar, I was back at my desk, pounding out code and reading the f'ing manual. And when somebody says I have a duty to make somebody's life easier, I want to ask them where they were when I was sweatting blood? You want a new "language" for "privlege"? How about spelling it L-A-Z-Y? Anyone could do what I did. It isn't hard. You just have to put in the work and for Goddess's sake stop whining.

softawre 10y ago
I agree with you for the most part. I'd just like to point out, since I also consider my family lower-middle class, that most lower-middle class families have no money whatsoever for college. Most of us in that situation took loans. And if we did OK, we paid them off. No big deal, just another minor obstacle.

stegosaurus 10y ago

I think the issue with 'white privilege' as a term is that people forget that the vast majority of people are not 'alright Jack'. It feels like an attack, like saying 'you have too much, give me some'. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates might have won the game. Someone with $5M might have. But your average 'privileged white male'? Even if we restrict it to the middle class, there's not that much to give up, you know? It's not as if we're all paid up on the mortgage with the retirement fund sorted and now we're just drilling away for more hookers and blow. I have real issues with the rhetoric that seems to be cropping up as of late as it seems to push the focus away from the capitalist elite that own everything, and on to those who are in the same order of magnitude of wealth, battling away to keep their lives together. We are friends, not enemies.

kailuowang 10y ago

> I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich Yes, you earned your success, but being from a poor Eastern Europe family doesn't say anything about whether or not you experienced a "white privilege". Try imagine yourself being a colored female from a poor Eastern Europe family might help a bit.

donohoe 10y ago

I really just want to echo what johnBooty (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11571398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11571398) said and add my 2 cents. Short version: I'm Irish, former illegal immigrant, naturalized citizen, pay my taxes, have a family, and consider myself a moderate success etc. I worked very, very hard to get to here I am now, but I guarantee you that that fact that I am white (and spoke English as a first language helped too) played its part too. It exists, it is a thing, and we're obligated to do our best to make things better for everyone along thew way.

odonnellryan 10y ago

I don't understand this mentality. I see it all the time. You're a part of a community. You've taken advantage of the community in the past: there is always an obligation to contribute positively back to the community. The author is saying they think diversity is positive to the community. You can argue against that point, but you aren't: you're saying contributing is bad.

odonnellryan 10y ago

I don't understand this mentality. I see it all the time. It isn't black and white. You're a part of a community. You've taken advantage of the community in the past: there is always an obligation to contribute positively back to the community. The author is saying they think diversity is positive to the community. You can argue against that point, but you aren't: you're saying contributing is bad.

morgante 10y ago

That statement, along with the clueless repetition that "women are paid 70% of what men are paid" really turned me off from the piece. I agree that racism and sexism are problems. I definitely try to not be racist and sexist myself. I even try to actively correct for my own unconscious bias. But it's not my responsibility to fix sexism in the tech industry. I'd rather focus on some other problems which I think are more serious—global extreme poverty, for example—and that shouldn't be a moral failing on my part.

njharman 10y ago

Are there lots of females in the industry where you are? I wouldn't be surprised if there were way more than in west. It seems (from my limited outsider view) that communism/socialism was much more egalitarian regarding gender and some of that carries over post USSR. Are there lots of ethnic minorities in the industry where you are? Being a white male doesn't mean it was easy for you or you auto-success. It means it was easier for you compared to non-ethic majority, non-males. source: I am 45 yr old white male

grifter2000 10y ago

agreed. getting tired of seeing this self-loathing nonsense and unabashed racism towards whites that's made it from tumblr vogue to mainstream media. it was no easy ride being poor and white in a black neighbourhood, either.