4 ms·

I don't think affirmative consent is sensible at all. If it were made law, then I would have been raped, and been raping at the same time, during pretty much a

by tomp 11y ago

I don't think affirmative consent is sensible at all. If it were made law, then I would have been raped, and been raping at the same time, during pretty much all sex I've had in my life! Obviously it's possible to have amazing consensual sex without affirmative consent.

ZeroGravitas 11y ago
I think you've just been misled (or are actively trying to mislead) about what affirmative consent involves. This is the rhetorical equivalent of "but it's snowing, so much for global warming!", a ha-ha-gotcha cliché, maybe you should try to engage with the topic on a deeper level.
- tomp 11y ago
  Maybe we need a clearer definition then...
Steuard 11y ago
I literally cannot imagine amazing sex that doesn't easily pass the threshold of "affirmative consent". As I quoted elsewhere in the thread, the definition that pops up on Google reads, "Affirmative consent is a knowing, voluntary, and mutual decision among all participants to engage in sexual activity. Consent can be given by words or actions, as long as those words or actions create clear permission regarding willingness to engage in the sexual activity." [http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/ http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/...] Any attempt I make to imagine "amazing sex" involves my partner being every bit as excited about what's going on as I am, at every step along the way. That means that when I'd signal interest in doing something new, she'd be expressing delight about it in one way or another (and vice versa). Anything of the sort would satisfy this definition with flying colors.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - Steuard 11y ago
    If someone is into BDSM or some sort of role playing that doesn't line up with my own (admittedly vanilla) vision, good for them. But everyone I've known who's into that scene takes an even stronger position on consent than the "affirmative consent" standard: they negotiate boundaries with their partners up front, and they agree on specific safewords that are given absolute respect. We don't generally ask that much of most people! What models of "amazing sex" do you have in mind that would not satisfy at least an affirmative consent standard? As I said, I literally can't imagine such a thing, so I'd welcome further insight.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
      - Steuard 11y ago
        Thanks for answering: I appreciate it. I'll admit that that notion is pretty foreign to me: "unenthusiastic" is pretty antithetical to "awesome" in my book (not just when it comes to sex). But setting aside the "awesome" label, I can definitely see a place for occasional unenthusiastic (but fondly willing?) sex in a long-term relationship. And I'm willing to grant that some folks might be turned on by "hateful" sex (though the combination of "hateful" and "unenthusiastic" seems exponentially less interesting). But in either case (and maybe especially both together), the sex in question is almost by definition going to look one heck of a lot like rape. If your partner is actively demonstrating a distaste for what you are doing, how do you know that they're consenting? I would hope that the people involved would have some very explicit conversations about what was expected in advance (and ideally even set up a safe word), just as for BDSM. (And as I noted, I consider that a stricter standard than affirmative consent.) Without those safeguards, if one of the participants in such an arrangement accused the other of rape, I honestly couldn't begin to see a reason to disagree with them. ("It wasn't rape, it was unenthusiastic, hateful sex! He's into that, believe me! Even though he says he isn't." That's not gonna fly.) Is there something I'm missing about this?

by tomp 11y ago

ZeroGravitas 11y ago

I think you've just been misled (or are actively trying to mislead) about what affirmative consent involves. This is the rhetorical equivalent of "but it's snowing, so much for global warming!", a ha-ha-gotcha cliché, maybe you should try to engage with the topic on a deeper level.

tomp 11y ago
Maybe we need a clearer definition then...

Steuard 11y ago

I literally cannot imagine amazing sex that doesn't easily pass the threshold of "affirmative consent". As I quoted elsewhere in the thread, the definition that pops up on Google reads, "Affirmative consent is a knowing, voluntary, and mutual decision among all participants to engage in sexual activity. Consent can be given by words or actions, as long as those words or actions create clear permission regarding willingness to engage in the sexual activity." [http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/ http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/...] Any attempt I make to imagine "amazing sex" involves my partner being every bit as excited about what's going on as I am, at every step along the way. That means that when I'd signal interest in doing something new, she'd be expressing delight about it in one way or another (and vice versa). Anything of the sort would satisfy this definition with flying colors.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- Steuard 11y ago
  If someone is into BDSM or some sort of role playing that doesn't line up with my own (admittedly vanilla) vision, good for them. But everyone I've known who's into that scene takes an even stronger position on consent than the "affirmative consent" standard: they negotiate boundaries with their partners up front, and they agree on specific safewords that are given absolute respect. We don't generally ask that much of most people! What models of "amazing sex" do you have in mind that would not satisfy at least an affirmative consent standard? As I said, I literally can't imagine such a thing, so I'd welcome further insight.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - Steuard 11y ago
      Thanks for answering: I appreciate it. I'll admit that that notion is pretty foreign to me: "unenthusiastic" is pretty antithetical to "awesome" in my book (not just when it comes to sex). But setting aside the "awesome" label, I can definitely see a place for occasional unenthusiastic (but fondly willing?) sex in a long-term relationship. And I'm willing to grant that some folks might be turned on by "hateful" sex (though the combination of "hateful" and "unenthusiastic" seems exponentially less interesting). But in either case (and maybe especially both together), the sex in question is almost by definition going to look one heck of a lot like rape. If your partner is actively demonstrating a distaste for what you are doing, how do you know that they're consenting? I would hope that the people involved would have some very explicit conversations about what was expected in advance (and ideally even set up a safe word), just as for BDSM. (And as I noted, I consider that a stricter standard than affirmative consent.) Without those safeguards, if one of the participants in such an arrangement accused the other of rape, I honestly couldn't begin to see a reason to disagree with them. ("It wasn't rape, it was unenthusiastic, hateful sex! He's into that, believe me! Even though he says he isn't." That's not gonna fly.) Is there something I'm missing about this?