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America can do lots of things. Doesn't mean it will. The prison-industrial complex will not allow falling incarceration rates to eat into its profits - too man

America can do lots of things. Doesn't mean it will. The prison-industrial complex will not allow falling incarceration rates to eat into its profits - too many executive bonuses depend just the opposite. And not just private prisons - there bloated police budgets and military gear that will otherwise - gasp - go to waste. And don't get me started on the DA's who must always appear "tough on crime" to get re-elected by an ever-fearful populace that is convinced that various boogeymen are planning its demise 24/7/365. But ultimately, it's about money. Always has been. And this country values profits above all else. And if a few more thousand innocent people need to get imprisoned and have their lives destroyed - well, that's a price that we, as a society, are willing to pay. As long as WASP-y suburban white America doesn't feel the pinch. As soon as some unannounced no-knock raid by a SWAT team decked out like it's Fallujah circa '05 busts in and shoots up a bunch of 18-year-old "all-American" kids, prom queens and cheer-leaders and judges' daughters and sons and all. Then and only then will you see a real outcry.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago
It's funny that "police brutality" entered public discourse right after it became common knowledge that SWAT teams can break into your home unannounced and shoot your dogs without accountability. Never mind that this has been happening for decades to other groups and it ended with dead people and not pets. > As long as WASP-y suburban white America doesn't feel the pinch. As soon as some unannounced no-knock raid by a SWAT team decked out like it's Fallujah circa '05 busts in and shoots up a bunch of 18-year-old "all-American" kids, prom queens and cheer-leaders and judges' daughters and sons and all. Then and only then will you see a real outcry. In my area, an upper class and upper middle class region near a large city, a prescription opioid and heroin epidemic has been sweeping up affluent white children. There is a big difference in how drug related offenses are handled now, the consequences are much less severe and many go home uncharged.
- dsfyu404ed 11y ago
  I think if the guys kicking down doors over here had the same restraint, rules of engagement and accountability as the guys kicking down doors "like it's Fallujah circa '05" then that would solve a lot of the problem...
rayiner 11y ago
> But ultimately, it's about money. Always has been. And this country values profits above all else. And if a few more thousand innocent people need to get imprisoned and have their lives destroyed - well, that's a price that we, as a society, are willing to pay. Money didn't create the modern incarceration state. Corrections Corporation of America had about $55 million in revenue in 1990 and less than $200,000 in profits: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/76/Corrections-Corporation-of-America.html http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/76/Corrections-...: http://notunlikeresearch.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f1fb8812970b0168e9a56b88970c-pi http://notunlikeresearch.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f1fb8812970b01.... The incarceration rate had been exploding for 10-15 years before that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#/media/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra.... The rise of CCA (which was a pioneer in the field), actually coincided with an inflection point where the growth in incarceration rate started slowing down. The incarceration craze of the 1980's and 1990's was a response to a real spike in violent crime that started in the 1960's: http://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Roman_blog1.pdf http://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/wp-content/uploads/... (showing violent crime per capita increasing by more than 4x between 1963 and 1992). And it was fueled by a conservative backlash against the liberalism of the 1960's and 1970's. We can argue about whether mass incarceration was the correct response to that increase in crime. But it's ridiculous to say it arose before of some sort of profit motive. That argument ignores the data right in front of your face.
- partycoder 11y ago
  Ever heard of the "kids for cash" program? Judges would sentence kids in exchange for money from the prison industry.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    That started in 2000.
- rrauenza 11y ago
  ...and that spike in crime may have been related to lead - in particular, leaded gasoline. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure-gasoline-crime-increase-children-health http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure...
dikdik 11y ago
Why are white people responsible for everything negative? Do minorities not vote for the same politicians these "awful awful white people" vote for? Is Hillary Clinton (who will do less about the War on Drugs than Bernie Sanders) not getting a majority of the Dem. African American vote?
gozur88 11y ago
>The prison-industrial complex will not allow falling incarceration rates to eat into its profits - too many executive bonuses depend just the opposite. We need to get away from thinking this is some kind of conspiracy. The drug war exists because the public is unwilling to entertain alternatives, and to the extent it's misguided, it's a misguided attempt to deal with real problems. Certainly there are companies and individuals making money by building and staffing prisons, but without public support the system would not exist as currently constituted. In my state you don't go to jail for simple possession. People who end up in the slammer on drug charges are there either because they were dealing, or because the drug charges were coupled with other criminal behavior. To get locked up for possession of even "hard" drugs you have to be arrested multiple times and have a history of the sorts of crimes associated with junkies. I'm curious what people who want to "end the drug war" are proposing we do with a meth head on serial burglary spree in an effort to support his habit. Because he's not going to stop breaking into houses no matter what you do with the drug laws.
- thinkmassive 11y ago
  Charge them with burglary. It's already a crime.
  - gozur88 11y ago
    Yes, but the point is that guy is going to end up in jail one way or another. People who think the jails will just empty out if we stop prosecuting people for drugs aren't thinking things through.
  - dinkumthinkum 11y ago
    Your flippant statement is cute but some people might be interested not having the serial burglars. I think it's sort of interesting that someone posted some Mother Jones apologia for criminality citing Swiss cheese hypotheses about lead and criminality ..... but wait we have to outlaw lead but any drugs people want to use must be made free ... what about ones including lead? I mean perhaps you aren't making this claim, I just think there are a lot of misconceptions about the utopia that follows from complete legalization and and I think the "we have laws against theft and murder already" are pretty weak for those interested in like having civil society.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago

It's funny that "police brutality" entered public discourse right after it became common knowledge that SWAT teams can break into your home unannounced and shoot your dogs without accountability. Never mind that this has been happening for decades to other groups and it ended with dead people and not pets. > As long as WASP-y suburban white America doesn't feel the pinch. As soon as some unannounced no-knock raid by a SWAT team decked out like it's Fallujah circa '05 busts in and shoots up a bunch of 18-year-old "all-American" kids, prom queens and cheer-leaders and judges' daughters and sons and all. Then and only then will you see a real outcry. In my area, an upper class and upper middle class region near a large city, a prescription opioid and heroin epidemic has been sweeping up affluent white children. There is a big difference in how drug related offenses are handled now, the consequences are much less severe and many go home uncharged.

dsfyu404ed 11y ago
I think if the guys kicking down doors over here had the same restraint, rules of engagement and accountability as the guys kicking down doors "like it's Fallujah circa '05" then that would solve a lot of the problem...

rayiner 11y ago

> But ultimately, it's about money. Always has been. And this country values profits above all else. And if a few more thousand innocent people need to get imprisoned and have their lives destroyed - well, that's a price that we, as a society, are willing to pay. Money didn't create the modern incarceration state. Corrections Corporation of America had about $55 million in revenue in 1990 and less than $200,000 in profits: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/76/Corrections-Corporation-of-America.html http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/76/Corrections-...: http://notunlikeresearch.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f1fb8812970b0168e9a56b88970c-pi http://notunlikeresearch.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f1fb8812970b01.... The incarceration rate had been exploding for 10-15 years before that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#/media/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra.... The rise of CCA (which was a pioneer in the field), actually coincided with an inflection point where the growth in incarceration rate started slowing down. The incarceration craze of the 1980's and 1990's was a response to a real spike in violent crime that started in the 1960's: http://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Roman_blog1.pdf http://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/wp-content/uploads/... (showing violent crime per capita increasing by more than 4x between 1963 and 1992). And it was fueled by a conservative backlash against the liberalism of the 1960's and 1970's. We can argue about whether mass incarceration was the correct response to that increase in crime. But it's ridiculous to say it arose before of some sort of profit motive. That argument ignores the data right in front of your face.

partycoder 11y ago
Ever heard of the "kids for cash" program? Judges would sentence kids in exchange for money from the prison industry.
- rayiner 11y ago
  That started in 2000.
rrauenza 11y ago
...and that spike in crime may have been related to lead - in particular, leaded gasoline. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure-gasoline-crime-increase-children-health http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure...

dikdik 11y ago

Why are white people responsible for everything negative? Do minorities not vote for the same politicians these "awful awful white people" vote for? Is Hillary Clinton (who will do less about the War on Drugs than Bernie Sanders) not getting a majority of the Dem. African American vote?

gozur88 11y ago

>The prison-industrial complex will not allow falling incarceration rates to eat into its profits - too many executive bonuses depend just the opposite. We need to get away from thinking this is some kind of conspiracy. The drug war exists because the public is unwilling to entertain alternatives, and to the extent it's misguided, it's a misguided attempt to deal with real problems. Certainly there are companies and individuals making money by building and staffing prisons, but without public support the system would not exist as currently constituted. In my state you don't go to jail for simple possession. People who end up in the slammer on drug charges are there either because they were dealing, or because the drug charges were coupled with other criminal behavior. To get locked up for possession of even "hard" drugs you have to be arrested multiple times and have a history of the sorts of crimes associated with junkies. I'm curious what people who want to "end the drug war" are proposing we do with a meth head on serial burglary spree in an effort to support his habit. Because he's not going to stop breaking into houses no matter what you do with the drug laws.

thinkmassive 11y ago
Charge them with burglary. It's already a crime.
- gozur88 11y ago
  Yes, but the point is that guy is going to end up in jail one way or another. People who think the jails will just empty out if we stop prosecuting people for drugs aren't thinking things through.
- dinkumthinkum 11y ago
  Your flippant statement is cute but some people might be interested not having the serial burglars. I think it's sort of interesting that someone posted some Mother Jones apologia for criminality citing Swiss cheese hypotheses about lead and criminality ..... but wait we have to outlaw lead but any drugs people want to use must be made free ... what about ones including lead? I mean perhaps you aren't making this claim, I just think there are a lot of misconceptions about the utopia that follows from complete legalization and and I think the "we have laws against theft and murder already" are pretty weak for those interested in like having civil society.