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But it doesn't want to. It's too central to its overall operating ideology -- specifically, the need to have a steady supply of marginalized groups, internal a

But it doesn't want to. It's too central to its overall operating ideology -- specifically, the need to have a steady supply of marginalized groups, internal and/or external (the exact definition and composition of which may change over time) to arbitrarily and vindictively punish, in order to demonstrate the state's omnipotence, and keep the rest of the population not completely terrorized, but just moderately and optimally terrorized -- pretty much all the time. (That, and because a significant portion of the population actually still genuinely believes in the need for it. The war on drugs is a complex phenomenon, like any long-ranging civil conflict, with multiple factors behind both its inception and its continuance).

kogus 11y ago
I like how "most people want it" is somehow a secondary reason to a vague theory of Orwellian mind control. People want it. Therefore it is policy. Period. As for why they want it, and the politicians who manipulate their fears... now that, I think, is real.
- nacs 11y ago
  > a secondary reason to a vague theory of Orwellian mind control A look at parent's username makes it clear why the Kafkaesque reason takes precedence.
- rjbwork 11y ago
  Depends on what exact policies you're talking about really. Marijuana prohibition especially has been majority-unpopular for a long time, and legalization majority-popular for anywhere from 4-7 years now, depending on the polls you use. Other drugs are definitely more controversial.
  - Loughla 11y ago
    Depending on what polls you use. When you use the type of polls that matter - actual voting, it's the elderly and conservative that vote, so it's the elderly and conservative who have a voice. Hence, marijuana prohibition continues. We're only seeing a lightening of this prohibition because our elderly are more and more from the baby boomer generation - the generation that made smoking pot cool.
  - dinkumthinkum 11y ago
    Is 4-7 years a long time? What does majority-popular mean? Someone else asked "what polls," and I have to agree with that. I think the last time this came up in California for a ballot initiative the results weren't as you are assuming. I'm not sure what the majority opinion is on anything; from what I can tell if you asked a large number if Americans who Abraham Lincoln was with 3 choices, it would probably be all over the place.
    - deaddodo 11y ago
      California was the first state to decriminalize 50 years ago and has always been majority for legalization. The issue has always been turnout (since it's decriminalized and medically legal), but even now, polls show 60% of likely voters to be pro-legalization: http://blog.norml.org/2016/02/25/poll-60-percent-of-likely-california-voters-support-initiative-effort-to-legalize-adult-marijuana-use/ http://blog.norml.org/2016/02/25/poll-60-percent-of-likely-c...
      - dinkumthinkum 11y ago
        The issue is turnout ... oh wow. Well "if only all the people that want my product, bought my product, my startup would be a huge success .... It's just all those that want to buy my product can't get around to buying it ... Will you fund my startup Mr. VC?"
    - rjbwork 11y ago
      I suppose I was being somewhat intentionally obfuscatory. There's been a large contingent of "undecided" for a while, majority-popular meaning >50% in favor, majority-unpopular meaning >50% not in favor. So if you had 45% in favor, but 40% against, and 15% undecided, that's majority unpopular...I should honestly not post so spur of the moment. ;)
  - rayiner 11y ago
    Define "long time." Among the general public, it was only 2011-12 when more people wanted marijuana legal than illegal: http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/14/in-debate-over-legalizing-marijuana-disagreement-over-drugs-dangers/4-14-2015_01 http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/14/in-debate-over-legali.... That's a very short time in political timescale (especially in a government with representative rather than direct democracy). The public opinion on other drugs is not controversial. People broadly agree they should be illegal: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/drug-legalization-poll_n_5162357.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/drug-legalization-p.... There is pretty much nothing 75-85% of Americans agree on, other than that heroin, cocaine, LSD, etc, should be illegal. Well, that and that we should throw people in prison for life after three felonies: https://books.google.com/books?id=_wcyrot2kcUC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=support+for+three+strikes+laws+time+cnn+1994&source=bl&ots=Fn4jlAS-Fz&sig=vCJx0crZyYT4MsNgDfE4Z5PTpeI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje_u3V36rMAhUDaz4KHfVKDo0Q6AEIPDAE#v=onepage&q=support%20for%20three%20strikes%20laws%20time%20cnn%201994&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=_wcyrot2kcUC&pg=PA234&lpg=...
    - techdragon 11y ago
      Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just reminding people of an important relevant point. It's pretty well proven that a survey can be crafted to guarantee the desired outcome for whom ever paid for it.
      - rayiner 11y ago
        Its a Pew survey (a generally liberal outfit), and shows a change in response to the same question over time.
    - pcwalton 11y ago
      > Well, that and that we should throw people in prison for life after three felonies: Those polls were from 1994 and 1995. The crime rate was way higher then: http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Prod...
- bitwize 11y ago
  Read your Chomsky. What people want is manufactured ahead of time by deep-state actors to serve their interests.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Chomsky saying it is not actually evidence that it is true...
    - rayiner 11y ago
      It's also not what Chomsky said. It's been a few years since I read Manufacturing Consent, but as I recall the central theory is that the media is incentivized to paint a positive picture of the government to maintain access. Bitwize asserts a stronger proposition: that what people believe is manufactured by the government. Chomsky doesn't go that far.
- dinkumthinkum 11y ago
  That's standard fare in HN. We have to blame large multi-national smoke filled room conspiracies before anything else. Everything is like a scifi novel. Obviously, I like scifi but we have to so think of what's the likely way that things are.
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deaddodo 11y ago
Well, it's important to point out that the Federal gov't has little direct power. All their tooth comes from coercing the States into making drug possession illegal and then co-opting the Commerce Clause into making it a Federal issue. Much as is happening with marijuana when the States decriminalize/legalize it; the Fed can't do much without lower cooperation. Hell, they had a hard time 15 years ago using the Commerce Clause to convict people on an ounce of weed as "intent to distribute".

kogus 11y ago

I like how "most people want it" is somehow a secondary reason to a vague theory of Orwellian mind control. People want it. Therefore it is policy. Period. As for why they want it, and the politicians who manipulate their fears... now that, I think, is real.

nacs 11y ago
> a secondary reason to a vague theory of Orwellian mind control A look at parent's username makes it clear why the Kafkaesque reason takes precedence.
rjbwork 11y ago
Depends on what exact policies you're talking about really. Marijuana prohibition especially has been majority-unpopular for a long time, and legalization majority-popular for anywhere from 4-7 years now, depending on the polls you use. Other drugs are definitely more controversial.
- Loughla 11y ago
  Depending on what polls you use. When you use the type of polls that matter - actual voting, it's the elderly and conservative that vote, so it's the elderly and conservative who have a voice. Hence, marijuana prohibition continues. We're only seeing a lightening of this prohibition because our elderly are more and more from the baby boomer generation - the generation that made smoking pot cool.
- dinkumthinkum 11y ago
  Is 4-7 years a long time? What does majority-popular mean? Someone else asked "what polls," and I have to agree with that. I think the last time this came up in California for a ballot initiative the results weren't as you are assuming. I'm not sure what the majority opinion is on anything; from what I can tell if you asked a large number if Americans who Abraham Lincoln was with 3 choices, it would probably be all over the place.
  - deaddodo 11y ago
    California was the first state to decriminalize 50 years ago and has always been majority for legalization. The issue has always been turnout (since it's decriminalized and medically legal), but even now, polls show 60% of likely voters to be pro-legalization: http://blog.norml.org/2016/02/25/poll-60-percent-of-likely-california-voters-support-initiative-effort-to-legalize-adult-marijuana-use/ http://blog.norml.org/2016/02/25/poll-60-percent-of-likely-c...
    - dinkumthinkum 11y ago
      The issue is turnout ... oh wow. Well "if only all the people that want my product, bought my product, my startup would be a huge success .... It's just all those that want to buy my product can't get around to buying it ... Will you fund my startup Mr. VC?"
  - rjbwork 11y ago
    I suppose I was being somewhat intentionally obfuscatory. There's been a large contingent of "undecided" for a while, majority-popular meaning >50% in favor, majority-unpopular meaning >50% not in favor. So if you had 45% in favor, but 40% against, and 15% undecided, that's majority unpopular...I should honestly not post so spur of the moment. ;)
- rayiner 11y ago
  Define "long time." Among the general public, it was only 2011-12 when more people wanted marijuana legal than illegal: http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/14/in-debate-over-legalizing-marijuana-disagreement-over-drugs-dangers/4-14-2015_01 http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/14/in-debate-over-legali.... That's a very short time in political timescale (especially in a government with representative rather than direct democracy). The public opinion on other drugs is not controversial. People broadly agree they should be illegal: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/drug-legalization-poll_n_5162357.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/drug-legalization-p.... There is pretty much nothing 75-85% of Americans agree on, other than that heroin, cocaine, LSD, etc, should be illegal. Well, that and that we should throw people in prison for life after three felonies: https://books.google.com/books?id=_wcyrot2kcUC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=support+for+three+strikes+laws+time+cnn+1994&source=bl&ots=Fn4jlAS-Fz&sig=vCJx0crZyYT4MsNgDfE4Z5PTpeI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje_u3V36rMAhUDaz4KHfVKDo0Q6AEIPDAE#v=onepage&q=support%20for%20three%20strikes%20laws%20time%20cnn%201994&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=_wcyrot2kcUC&pg=PA234&lpg=...
  - techdragon 11y ago
    Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just reminding people of an important relevant point. It's pretty well proven that a survey can be crafted to guarantee the desired outcome for whom ever paid for it.
    - rayiner 11y ago
      Its a Pew survey (a generally liberal outfit), and shows a change in response to the same question over time.
  - pcwalton 11y ago
    > Well, that and that we should throw people in prison for life after three felonies: Those polls were from 1994 and 1995. The crime rate was way higher then: http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Prod...
bitwize 11y ago
Read your Chomsky. What people want is manufactured ahead of time by deep-state actors to serve their interests.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  Sorry to burst your bubble, but Chomsky saying it is not actually evidence that it is true...
  - rayiner 11y ago
    It's also not what Chomsky said. It's been a few years since I read Manufacturing Consent, but as I recall the central theory is that the media is incentivized to paint a positive picture of the government to maintain access. Bitwize asserts a stronger proposition: that what people believe is manufactured by the government. Chomsky doesn't go that far.
dinkumthinkum 11y ago
That's standard fare in HN. We have to blame large multi-national smoke filled room conspiracies before anything else. Everything is like a scifi novel. Obviously, I like scifi but we have to so think of what's the likely way that things are.

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deaddodo 11y ago

Well, it's important to point out that the Federal gov't has little direct power. All their tooth comes from coercing the States into making drug possession illegal and then co-opting the Commerce Clause into making it a Federal issue. Much as is happening with marijuana when the States decriminalize/legalize it; the Fed can't do much without lower cooperation. Hell, they had a hard time 15 years ago using the Commerce Clause to convict people on an ounce of weed as "intent to distribute".