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> in particular insisting that they couldn't require the diesel exhaust fluid tank to be topped up by the end user Not being rude, but I'm having trouble parsi

> in particular insisting that they couldn't require the diesel exhaust fluid tank to be topped up by the end user Not being rude, but I'm having trouble parsing that part of your comment. Do you mean that the US authorities won't let diesel car owners re-fill the diesel exhaust fluid tank by themselves, i.e. the re-fill must be performed by a dealer? Also is the DEF tank just a US thing? I'd never heard it before (UK resident here).

kuschku 11y ago
The DEF tank is a global thing – ever heard of AdBlue etc? But yes, the issue is that the US requires dealers to refill them. And also sets a limit for how often refill cycles may happen. And the weight of the tank sets a limit on how large it may be. The result is simple: Small Diesel cars can’t exist legally in the US.
- teh_klev 11y ago
  This is all completely new to me (and probably most folks unless they're running around in brand new diesel vehicles). The last diesel car I owned was a 1998 (Euro-2 standard when NOx emissions were more relaxed - so no DEF required [0]) Ford Mondeo which I disposed of in 2006 when the timing belt snapped ruining the engine. Since then I've owned older petrol engined high mileage "bangers" so I would never have encountered DEF unless I won the lottery and fancied a new Landrover :) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Em...
- ptaipale 11y ago
  >The result is simple: Small Diesel cars can’t exist legally in the US. And that is, of course, intentional. To keep some of the foreign competition away.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    Because American companies can't make diesel cars?
    - vinay427 11y ago
      They do with reasonable success in many parts of the world, so I'm not sure what GP was trying to claim.
    - bobwaycott 11y ago
      Because American companies don't make diesel cars. Aside from trucks, that is. I tend to keep up on cars, and I can't name any American-brand, small diesel off the top of my head from the last 30+ years, aside from last year's Chevy Cruze. Edit/clarification: I'm speaking strictly of the American market. If American companies make small diesel cars for international markets, it's not at all relevant to discussing small diesel cars in the US.
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        There were multiple unfortunate diesels in the 1980s. My first thought was "Ford Escort" and a bit of searching confirms that there was one (Mazda made the engines though).
      - ptaipale 11y ago
        Ford makes them though, but only in Europe, and they are not particularly strong in diesel at that. Both Focus and Mondeo are available as diesels. And even Fiasco...sorry, Fiesta. GM don't sell Opels in the US, although they could re-badge them as Chevrolets.
        teh_klev 11y ago
        > Ford makes them though, but only in Europe, and they are not particularly strong in diesel at that I disagree, certainly from a UK perspective. Most modern Ford diesel engines are the product of the collaboration between Ford, Citreon and Peugeot [0][1]. Ford diesel Focus and Mondeo's are hugely popular and are quite reliable, reasonably sporty and fuel efficient things. My dad's last three Fords (Focus, Mondeo then Focus) were all diesels and he loved them. Virtually everyone I know that own's a Focus has one of the diesel versions. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_DLD_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_DLD_engine [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17
lucaspiller 11y ago
This page from Land Rover has a good overview, apparently it's a new requirement in Europe (I've also never heard of it before): http://www.landrover.co.uk/ownership/euro-6-emissions-standards.html http://www.landrover.co.uk/ownership/euro-6-emissions-standa...
- teh_klev 11y ago
  "A third warning indicates when 515 miles are left and also warns that the DEF tank needs re-filling or the vehicle will not be able re-start when the distance countdown reaches 0." Wow. "The engine will only start again when the DEF tank is re-filled." And thus the the "faulty DEF sensor" malfunction is introduced into our car fault lexicon.
  - selimthegrim 11y ago
    There's no limp mode?
    - hcrisp 11y ago
      A truck mechanic told me that drivers have been rumored to urinate in the DEF tank to bring the level of urea up to the point that it can be driven.
      - selimthegrim 11y ago
        Well I suppose that's unintended comedy in the naming then.
      - elbrownos 11y ago
        Sounds like an urban legend. DEF is 325 g/L urea. Urine is roughly 9.3 g/L urea. Not a great substitute.
        drcongo 11y ago
        I think they're taking the piss.
makomk 11y ago
I'm pretty sure that owners can refill the tank by themselves, but manufacturers are required to have a big enough tank that it can be done by the dealer as part of the regular servicing schedule. The tank itself not so much a US thing as it is a modern diesel car thing; it's part of the emissions control system on I think most new diesels.
- guscost 11y ago
  Wow, I hadn't heard this. What a counterproductive, idiotic piece of regulation.
  - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
    It's not an idiotic regulation. If you fit a tiny reservoir that needs to be topped up every week then most customers wouldn't bother, and the car would be spewing extra toxins. So you have to make it large enough that normal servicing will ensure it is filled.
    - guscost 11y ago
      Using "limp mode" with warnings to ensure the tank stays filled (and the car does not run at full throttle unless it is filled) is a much better solution. When the sales guy told me the tank only had to be filled at service intervals, it sounded strange. People on the TDI forums thought it was just because VW didn't want to scare away customers with an extra thing to do, but you can buy the stuff at any gas station and pouring it into the tank is not difficult. When the scandal broke the assumption was that they mistuned the DEF cars out of arrogance, and again to avoid spooking customers with extra maintenance. Now it sounds much more like they tuned it that way because this regulation would have crippled the car with an enormous DEF tank otherwise. It is possible that such a regulation combined with a 10,000 mile service interval only makes engineering sense on mid-size trucks or larger. This doesn't have anything to do with them failing to build a working LNT solution and cheating with those previously, of course.
    - Grishnakh 11y ago
      It's very simple: make the car so that if the tank hits empty, the car doesn't run any more. If you think that's a problem, then please explain why this isn't also a problem for the gas tank. I don't know of any cars which will continue to drive (but spewing extra toxins) when the gas or diesel tank is empty. Customers don't seem to have much of a problem topping up their diesel tank every week or two....

kuschku 11y ago

The DEF tank is a global thing – ever heard of AdBlue etc? But yes, the issue is that the US requires dealers to refill them. And also sets a limit for how often refill cycles may happen. And the weight of the tank sets a limit on how large it may be. The result is simple: Small Diesel cars can’t exist legally in the US.

teh_klev 11y ago
This is all completely new to me (and probably most folks unless they're running around in brand new diesel vehicles). The last diesel car I owned was a 1998 (Euro-2 standard when NOx emissions were more relaxed - so no DEF required [0]) Ford Mondeo which I disposed of in 2006 when the timing belt snapped ruining the engine. Since then I've owned older petrol engined high mileage "bangers" so I would never have encountered DEF unless I won the lottery and fancied a new Landrover :) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Em...
ptaipale 11y ago
>The result is simple: Small Diesel cars can’t exist legally in the US. And that is, of course, intentional. To keep some of the foreign competition away.
- rayiner 11y ago
  Because American companies can't make diesel cars?
  - vinay427 11y ago
    They do with reasonable success in many parts of the world, so I'm not sure what GP was trying to claim.
  - bobwaycott 11y ago
    Because American companies don't make diesel cars. Aside from trucks, that is. I tend to keep up on cars, and I can't name any American-brand, small diesel off the top of my head from the last 30+ years, aside from last year's Chevy Cruze. Edit/clarification: I'm speaking strictly of the American market. If American companies make small diesel cars for international markets, it's not at all relevant to discussing small diesel cars in the US.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      There were multiple unfortunate diesels in the 1980s. My first thought was "Ford Escort" and a bit of searching confirms that there was one (Mazda made the engines though).
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      Ford makes them though, but only in Europe, and they are not particularly strong in diesel at that. Both Focus and Mondeo are available as diesels. And even Fiasco...sorry, Fiesta. GM don't sell Opels in the US, although they could re-badge them as Chevrolets.
      - teh_klev 11y ago
        > Ford makes them though, but only in Europe, and they are not particularly strong in diesel at that I disagree, certainly from a UK perspective. Most modern Ford diesel engines are the product of the collaboration between Ford, Citreon and Peugeot [0][1]. Ford diesel Focus and Mondeo's are hugely popular and are quite reliable, reasonably sporty and fuel efficient things. My dad's last three Fords (Focus, Mondeo then Focus) were all diesels and he loved them. Virtually everyone I know that own's a Focus has one of the diesel versions. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_DLD_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_DLD_engine [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17

lucaspiller 11y ago

This page from Land Rover has a good overview, apparently it's a new requirement in Europe (I've also never heard of it before): http://www.landrover.co.uk/ownership/euro-6-emissions-standards.html http://www.landrover.co.uk/ownership/euro-6-emissions-standa...

teh_klev 11y ago
"A third warning indicates when 515 miles are left and also warns that the DEF tank needs re-filling or the vehicle will not be able re-start when the distance countdown reaches 0." Wow. "The engine will only start again when the DEF tank is re-filled." And thus the the "faulty DEF sensor" malfunction is introduced into our car fault lexicon.
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  There's no limp mode?
  - hcrisp 11y ago
    A truck mechanic told me that drivers have been rumored to urinate in the DEF tank to bring the level of urea up to the point that it can be driven.
    - selimthegrim 11y ago
      Well I suppose that's unintended comedy in the naming then.
    - elbrownos 11y ago
      Sounds like an urban legend. DEF is 325 g/L urea. Urine is roughly 9.3 g/L urea. Not a great substitute.
      - drcongo 11y ago
        I think they're taking the piss.

makomk 11y ago

I'm pretty sure that owners can refill the tank by themselves, but manufacturers are required to have a big enough tank that it can be done by the dealer as part of the regular servicing schedule. The tank itself not so much a US thing as it is a modern diesel car thing; it's part of the emissions control system on I think most new diesels.

guscost 11y ago
Wow, I hadn't heard this. What a counterproductive, idiotic piece of regulation.
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  It's not an idiotic regulation. If you fit a tiny reservoir that needs to be topped up every week then most customers wouldn't bother, and the car would be spewing extra toxins. So you have to make it large enough that normal servicing will ensure it is filled.
  - guscost 11y ago
    Using "limp mode" with warnings to ensure the tank stays filled (and the car does not run at full throttle unless it is filled) is a much better solution. When the sales guy told me the tank only had to be filled at service intervals, it sounded strange. People on the TDI forums thought it was just because VW didn't want to scare away customers with an extra thing to do, but you can buy the stuff at any gas station and pouring it into the tank is not difficult. When the scandal broke the assumption was that they mistuned the DEF cars out of arrogance, and again to avoid spooking customers with extra maintenance. Now it sounds much more like they tuned it that way because this regulation would have crippled the car with an enormous DEF tank otherwise. It is possible that such a regulation combined with a 10,000 mile service interval only makes engineering sense on mid-size trucks or larger. This doesn't have anything to do with them failing to build a working LNT solution and cheating with those previously, of course.
  - Grishnakh 11y ago
    It's very simple: make the car so that if the tank hits empty, the car doesn't run any more. If you think that's a problem, then please explain why this isn't also a problem for the gas tank. I don't know of any cars which will continue to drive (but spewing extra toxins) when the gas or diesel tank is empty. Customers don't seem to have much of a problem topping up their diesel tank every week or two....