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What the Guardian neglects to add is that (IIRC) the German auto industry had placed a big bet on diesel engines as far back as the early '80s, and that the Ger

by leoc 11y ago

What the Guardian neglects to add is that (IIRC) the German auto industry had placed a big bet on diesel engines as far back as the early '80s, and that the German government has enormous clout in the EU and seems to love German export industries with the same fervour that the US and UK governments adore their national financial sectors.

riffraff 11y ago
Are you sure this is the case? AFAIK all modern diesels are based on electronically controlled common rail which was originally designed by FIAT, even if it ended up being licensed to Bosch. What I mean is, probably all the european auto industry invested in diesel at a time when gasoline was considered a lot worse than diesel in terms of pollution, and taxation greatly favoured diesel vs gasoline in terms of fuel price.
- leoc 11y ago
  Hmm. Of course now I can't find my original source. :/ According to this article https://ranwhenparked.net/2013/07/22/30-years-ago-bmw-launches-first-diesel-engine/ https://ranwhenparked.net/2013/07/22/30-years-ago-bmw-launch... Mercedes' and BMW's interest in car diesel engines goes back to the 1970s, though Peugeot was there too. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_diesel_car&oldid=702948984#1990s_and_the_present https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_di... is oddly written and fairly uncited, but it does state "The diesel car markets are the same ones who pioneered various developments (Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Peugeot/Citroën, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen Group)". Moving towards the politics, Rüdiger K. W. Wurzel's Environmental policy-making in Britain, Germany and the European Union's Chapter 5, "The catalytic converter versus the lean-burn engine controversy" seems very informative. Particularly the section "The diesel engine", which contains this: "In America and Japan, diesel cars almost disappeared from the market in the 1970s after the adoption of stringent limit values for carcinogenic particulates, although this was disputed by the car industry. The EU introduced relatively lenient particulate limit values in the late 1980s. The German government demanded the [Best Available Technology] option for both petrol and diesel cars. However, after heavy lobbying from Mercedes and Volkswagen, fiscal incentives were granted not only for the three-way catalytic converter but for diesel cars which met the lenient EU particulate limits." (Seen through Google Books at https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0719073340 https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0719073340 ) Industry and Politics in West Germany: Toward the Third Republic by Peter J. Katzenstein (seen at https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0801495954 https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0801495954 ) adds "Moreover, since diesel engines get the same break, the European regulation also favours those German producers who are leaders in diesel technology, especially Daimler Benz and VW." However, Wurzel clearly asserts that the move towards US-style catalytic converters on petrol cars in Europe (which is apparently what first made diesels attractive as a regulatory end-run) was initiated by Germany in the teeth of opposition from German car makers (especially Volkswagen): there was a perception in the UK government that Germany was obliging its automakers in this, but it was wrong. Also, http://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715-25-15 http://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715... says that tax incentives for dieselisation in the domestic German market are relatively modest (and that there was a small tax penalty for buying a diesel until 2009, though not after actual fuel costs were taken into account) (2.3.6, 2.3.7). Interestingly, it also suggests that a supply glut of fuel oil (which can be converted into diesel) was the original incentive for the European diesel boom (2.3.1) . Then again, further on down the road it seems clear that the EU's lenient approach to diesel emissions had the effect of advantaging European automakers collectively against competition from the Japanese, who had bet on hybrids instead (2.3.6). In summary, TIL.

by leoc 11y ago

riffraff 11y ago

Are you sure this is the case? AFAIK all modern diesels are based on electronically controlled common rail which was originally designed by FIAT, even if it ended up being licensed to Bosch. What I mean is, probably all the european auto industry invested in diesel at a time when gasoline was considered a lot worse than diesel in terms of pollution, and taxation greatly favoured diesel vs gasoline in terms of fuel price.

leoc 11y ago
Hmm. Of course now I can't find my original source. :/ According to this article https://ranwhenparked.net/2013/07/22/30-years-ago-bmw-launches-first-diesel-engine/ https://ranwhenparked.net/2013/07/22/30-years-ago-bmw-launch... Mercedes' and BMW's interest in car diesel engines goes back to the 1970s, though Peugeot was there too. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_diesel_car&oldid=702948984#1990s_and_the_present https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_di... is oddly written and fairly uncited, but it does state "The diesel car markets are the same ones who pioneered various developments (Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Peugeot/Citroën, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen Group)". Moving towards the politics, Rüdiger K. W. Wurzel's Environmental policy-making in Britain, Germany and the European Union's Chapter 5, "The catalytic converter versus the lean-burn engine controversy" seems very informative. Particularly the section "The diesel engine", which contains this: "In America and Japan, diesel cars almost disappeared from the market in the 1970s after the adoption of stringent limit values for carcinogenic particulates, although this was disputed by the car industry. The EU introduced relatively lenient particulate limit values in the late 1980s. The German government demanded the [Best Available Technology] option for both petrol and diesel cars. However, after heavy lobbying from Mercedes and Volkswagen, fiscal incentives were granted not only for the three-way catalytic converter but for diesel cars which met the lenient EU particulate limits." (Seen through Google Books at https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0719073340 https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0719073340 ) Industry and Politics in West Germany: Toward the Third Republic by Peter J. Katzenstein (seen at https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0801495954 https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0801495954 ) adds "Moreover, since diesel engines get the same break, the European regulation also favours those German producers who are leaders in diesel technology, especially Daimler Benz and VW." However, Wurzel clearly asserts that the move towards US-style catalytic converters on petrol cars in Europe (which is apparently what first made diesels attractive as a regulatory end-run) was initiated by Germany in the teeth of opposition from German car makers (especially Volkswagen): there was a perception in the UK government that Germany was obliging its automakers in this, but it was wrong. Also, http://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715-25-15 http://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715... says that tax incentives for dieselisation in the domestic German market are relatively modest (and that there was a small tax penalty for buying a diesel until 2009, though not after actual fuel costs were taken into account) (2.3.6, 2.3.7). Interestingly, it also suggests that a supply glut of fuel oil (which can be converted into diesel) was the original incentive for the European diesel boom (2.3.1) . Then again, further on down the road it seems clear that the EU's lenient approach to diesel emissions had the effect of advantaging European automakers collectively against competition from the Japanese, who had bet on hybrids instead (2.3.6). In summary, TIL.