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There is a lot more riding on these tests than is currently being admitted. The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population healt

by awjr 11y ago

There is a lot more riding on these tests than is currently being admitted. The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population health, the sale of diesel cars should be stopped immediately. Even London has doubled the congestion charge fee for diesels. A further step would be to recognise that petrol cars also emit NOx and that the long term goal should be the removal of these from the road. Politically this is a hard thing to do, however some countries are forcing the issue http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/95237/dutch-move-to-ban-diesel-and-petrol-cars-by-2025 http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/95237/du... This is going to hurt the car industry in ways we don't fully understand yet. In the short term I would be end-of-lining their diesel production and restructuring to electric.

superuser2 11y ago
The fact remains that millions of people park on the street or in alleys/garages they do not own. Until we start stomping on landlords' property rights to force them to install chargers, and also somehow install chargers in street parking spaces, EVs are just not usable for a huge segments of the population. The only way to make EV ownership practical is, ironically, to make your commute longer by living in the suburbs.
MagnumOpus 11y ago
> The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population health, the sale of diesel cars should be stopped immediately Extremely disingenous. You know what happens when the sale of diesel cars/taxis/buses stops? The old ones get driven longer. You know what vehicles create the lion's share in NOx emissions? The ones built and sold before 2000 when Euro3 emission standards started limiting NOx emissions. The majority of London "quaint" TX4 black cabs are of this toxic variety, as are the majority of their buses. (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe). Taking 50 new diesel vehicles off the street will do less than upgrading a single one of these legacy vehicles to a state-of-the-art diesel engine. Your proposed policy would be counterproductive.
- zo1 11y ago
  I think the person you're responding to meant some sort of "immediate action", not necessarily just stopping the sale of new diesel cars. Precisely because we have to be sensible about the actual culprits of emission.
- kuschku 11y ago
  > (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe) In Germany, we actually limited almost all cities to cars passing Euro 4, and many even to cars passing Euro 6. Cars get a sticker with a color based on which standard they pass, and the zones are limited to cars with a sticker of the proper color. So most busses in Germany are Euro VI now.
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    London's bus fleet is also pretty new. All meet Euro 4, and over 20% at least Euro 5. [1] The taxis are the problem -- London's low emission zone (similar to those in Germany) only applies to large vehicles, taxis are not included. There are thousands of taxis over 10 years old still running in London [2]. > So most buses in Germany are Euro VI now. Really? That would mean most buses in Germany are less than 3 years old, which seems unlikely. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/world-s-largest-bus-retrofit-programme-compjeted https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/w... [2] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_londons_black https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_lon...
    - kuschku 11y ago
      In my city all busses are Euro VI, in several others they already switched to hybrids or are testing fully electric busses.
- takno 11y ago
  The maximum allowable age for London Taxis is 15 years. The actual breakdown is detailed here https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_londons_black https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_lon...

by awjr 11y ago

superuser2 11y ago

The fact remains that millions of people park on the street or in alleys/garages they do not own. Until we start stomping on landlords' property rights to force them to install chargers, and also somehow install chargers in street parking spaces, EVs are just not usable for a huge segments of the population. The only way to make EV ownership practical is, ironically, to make your commute longer by living in the suburbs.

MagnumOpus 11y ago

> The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population health, the sale of diesel cars should be stopped immediately Extremely disingenous. You know what happens when the sale of diesel cars/taxis/buses stops? The old ones get driven longer. You know what vehicles create the lion's share in NOx emissions? The ones built and sold before 2000 when Euro3 emission standards started limiting NOx emissions. The majority of London "quaint" TX4 black cabs are of this toxic variety, as are the majority of their buses. (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe). Taking 50 new diesel vehicles off the street will do less than upgrading a single one of these legacy vehicles to a state-of-the-art diesel engine. Your proposed policy would be counterproductive.

zo1 11y ago
I think the person you're responding to meant some sort of "immediate action", not necessarily just stopping the sale of new diesel cars. Precisely because we have to be sensible about the actual culprits of emission.
kuschku 11y ago
> (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe) In Germany, we actually limited almost all cities to cars passing Euro 4, and many even to cars passing Euro 6. Cars get a sticker with a color based on which standard they pass, and the zones are limited to cars with a sticker of the proper color. So most busses in Germany are Euro VI now.
- Symbiote 11y ago
  London's bus fleet is also pretty new. All meet Euro 4, and over 20% at least Euro 5. [1] The taxis are the problem -- London's low emission zone (similar to those in Germany) only applies to large vehicles, taxis are not included. There are thousands of taxis over 10 years old still running in London [2]. > So most buses in Germany are Euro VI now. Really? That would mean most buses in Germany are less than 3 years old, which seems unlikely. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/world-s-largest-bus-retrofit-programme-compjeted https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/w... [2] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_londons_black https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_lon...
  - kuschku 11y ago
    In my city all busses are Euro VI, in several others they already switched to hybrids or are testing fully electric busses.
takno 11y ago
The maximum allowable age for London Taxis is 15 years. The actual breakdown is detailed here https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_londons_black https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_lon...