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I'm willing to take down votes for this position, I don't understand the fuss here, nor to credulity of the actors whom should have (and probably did) know bett

I'm willing to take down votes for this position, I don't understand the fuss here, nor to credulity of the actors whom should have (and probably did) know better. If the tests were meant to reflect real-world conditions, they should be be designed to do that -- they clearly weren't, and were only tiny sample of performance from which (wild?) extrapolations were drawn. Don't have a cry about it, fix the tests. Get together some disinterested parties to design them to capture the behaviour we all apparently expected the current dud tests to measure. This actually reminds me of how the failure of the bodies responsible for banking oversight cry WOE when the industries they were charged with overseeing did bad things. Failure of real oversight again. And it the same way, we have these same bodies (NOT end users) expecting to be paid for making these mistakes. Who benefits from the fines? Not car owners, not car makers.

awjr 11y ago
There is a lot more riding on these tests than is currently being admitted. The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population health, the sale of diesel cars should be stopped immediately. Even London has doubled the congestion charge fee for diesels. A further step would be to recognise that petrol cars also emit NOx and that the long term goal should be the removal of these from the road. Politically this is a hard thing to do, however some countries are forcing the issue http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/95237/dutch-move-to-ban-diesel-and-petrol-cars-by-2025 http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/95237/du... This is going to hurt the car industry in ways we don't fully understand yet. In the short term I would be end-of-lining their diesel production and restructuring to electric.
- superuser2 11y ago
  The fact remains that millions of people park on the street or in alleys/garages they do not own. Until we start stomping on landlords' property rights to force them to install chargers, and also somehow install chargers in street parking spaces, EVs are just not usable for a huge segments of the population. The only way to make EV ownership practical is, ironically, to make your commute longer by living in the suburbs.
- MagnumOpus 11y ago
  > The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population health, the sale of diesel cars should be stopped immediately Extremely disingenous. You know what happens when the sale of diesel cars/taxis/buses stops? The old ones get driven longer. You know what vehicles create the lion's share in NOx emissions? The ones built and sold before 2000 when Euro3 emission standards started limiting NOx emissions. The majority of London "quaint" TX4 black cabs are of this toxic variety, as are the majority of their buses. (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe). Taking 50 new diesel vehicles off the street will do less than upgrading a single one of these legacy vehicles to a state-of-the-art diesel engine. Your proposed policy would be counterproductive.
  - zo1 11y ago
    I think the person you're responding to meant some sort of "immediate action", not necessarily just stopping the sale of new diesel cars. Precisely because we have to be sensible about the actual culprits of emission.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    > (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe) In Germany, we actually limited almost all cities to cars passing Euro 4, and many even to cars passing Euro 6. Cars get a sticker with a color based on which standard they pass, and the zones are limited to cars with a sticker of the proper color. So most busses in Germany are Euro VI now.
    - Symbiote 11y ago
      London's bus fleet is also pretty new. All meet Euro 4, and over 20% at least Euro 5. [1] The taxis are the problem -- London's low emission zone (similar to those in Germany) only applies to large vehicles, taxis are not included. There are thousands of taxis over 10 years old still running in London [2]. > So most buses in Germany are Euro VI now. Really? That would mean most buses in Germany are less than 3 years old, which seems unlikely. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/world-s-largest-bus-retrofit-programme-compjeted https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/w... [2] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_londons_black https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_lon...
InclinedPlane 11y ago
Diesel vehicles kill people, period. It's very difficult to reduce emissions sufficiently to change that but it's nigh impossible to ban diesel cars and trucks from the road. Given that, the only reasonable alternative is stringent tests that push diesel technology to the limit in terms of minimizing health impact. Which is what we have. Could the tests be better? Certainly. But that doesn't excuse the cheating. Imagine if airplane manufacturers had been found to be cheating on safety tests. That's how serious and how immoral this cheating is.
- verytrivial 11y ago
  The manufactures were required to "pass" the tests. They did. The tests were not fit for purpose. Fix the tests or GIVE UP. You will NEVER get the manufactures to act as moral entities -- they are amoral. They are profit machines and are required by law to be that way. The comparison to aircraft manufacturing only works if you are arguing aircraft manufactures and industry bodies design and implement similarly stupid tests -- they simply don't. Failing aircraft parts cause readily identifiable deaths, NOx requires large scale, organised statistical inference, which, lo, is also in the laps of the regulators. Sound, impartial, rational testing is the only way to improve the current situation -- I would argue the current situation is none of these things and was stillborn as a regime.
  - bkor 11y ago
    The tests weren't the problem. VW made it so the car only passed during the tests. A test should be somewhat reproducible and that conflicts with not being able to cheat the test. The solution would be to throw some people in jail. Your suggestion that it was even mandatory for companies to behave this way is so weird that I cannot respond to that.
    - ams6110 11y ago
      This story is not about the VW cheating, it's about diesel cars in general, and the tests that don't measure what they are supposed to be measuring.
    - 11y ago

awjr 11y ago

There is a lot more riding on these tests than is currently being admitted. The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population health, the sale of diesel cars should be stopped immediately. Even London has doubled the congestion charge fee for diesels. A further step would be to recognise that petrol cars also emit NOx and that the long term goal should be the removal of these from the road. Politically this is a hard thing to do, however some countries are forcing the issue http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/95237/dutch-move-to-ban-diesel-and-petrol-cars-by-2025 http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/95237/du... This is going to hurt the car industry in ways we don't fully understand yet. In the short term I would be end-of-lining their diesel production and restructuring to electric.

superuser2 11y ago
The fact remains that millions of people park on the street or in alleys/garages they do not own. Until we start stomping on landlords' property rights to force them to install chargers, and also somehow install chargers in street parking spaces, EVs are just not usable for a huge segments of the population. The only way to make EV ownership practical is, ironically, to make your commute longer by living in the suburbs.
MagnumOpus 11y ago
> The simple fact is that based on the tests and the impact of NOx on population health, the sale of diesel cars should be stopped immediately Extremely disingenous. You know what happens when the sale of diesel cars/taxis/buses stops? The old ones get driven longer. You know what vehicles create the lion's share in NOx emissions? The ones built and sold before 2000 when Euro3 emission standards started limiting NOx emissions. The majority of London "quaint" TX4 black cabs are of this toxic variety, as are the majority of their buses. (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe). Taking 50 new diesel vehicles off the street will do less than upgrading a single one of these legacy vehicles to a state-of-the-art diesel engine. Your proposed policy would be counterproductive.
- zo1 11y ago
  I think the person you're responding to meant some sort of "immediate action", not necessarily just stopping the sale of new diesel cars. Precisely because we have to be sensible about the actual culprits of emission.
- kuschku 11y ago
  > (This is probably similar to much of the rest of Europe) In Germany, we actually limited almost all cities to cars passing Euro 4, and many even to cars passing Euro 6. Cars get a sticker with a color based on which standard they pass, and the zones are limited to cars with a sticker of the proper color. So most busses in Germany are Euro VI now.
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    London's bus fleet is also pretty new. All meet Euro 4, and over 20% at least Euro 5. [1] The taxis are the problem -- London's low emission zone (similar to those in Germany) only applies to large vehicles, taxis are not included. There are thousands of taxis over 10 years old still running in London [2]. > So most buses in Germany are Euro VI now. Really? That would mean most buses in Germany are less than 3 years old, which seems unlikely. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/world-s-largest-bus-retrofit-programme-compjeted https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/july/w... [2] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_londons_black https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_lon...

InclinedPlane 11y ago

Diesel vehicles kill people, period. It's very difficult to reduce emissions sufficiently to change that but it's nigh impossible to ban diesel cars and trucks from the road. Given that, the only reasonable alternative is stringent tests that push diesel technology to the limit in terms of minimizing health impact. Which is what we have. Could the tests be better? Certainly. But that doesn't excuse the cheating. Imagine if airplane manufacturers had been found to be cheating on safety tests. That's how serious and how immoral this cheating is.

verytrivial 11y ago
The manufactures were required to "pass" the tests. They did. The tests were not fit for purpose. Fix the tests or GIVE UP. You will NEVER get the manufactures to act as moral entities -- they are amoral. They are profit machines and are required by law to be that way. The comparison to aircraft manufacturing only works if you are arguing aircraft manufactures and industry bodies design and implement similarly stupid tests -- they simply don't. Failing aircraft parts cause readily identifiable deaths, NOx requires large scale, organised statistical inference, which, lo, is also in the laps of the regulators. Sound, impartial, rational testing is the only way to improve the current situation -- I would argue the current situation is none of these things and was stillborn as a regime.
- bkor 11y ago
  The tests weren't the problem. VW made it so the car only passed during the tests. A test should be somewhat reproducible and that conflicts with not being able to cheat the test. The solution would be to throw some people in jail. Your suggestion that it was even mandatory for companies to behave this way is so weird that I cannot respond to that.
  - ams6110 11y ago
    This story is not about the VW cheating, it's about diesel cars in general, and the tests that don't measure what they are supposed to be measuring.
  - 11y ago