4 ms·

Man, I really enjoyed this author's viewpoint. This passage in particular voiced something I've been unable to express: > Yet consider: in order to construct t

by kough 10y ago

Man, I really enjoyed this author's viewpoint. This passage in particular voiced something I've been unable to express: > Yet consider: in order to construct this spectrum, it is necessary first firmly to establish what it means to be “man” and “woman.” Even if you are “genderqueer”—convinced that your gender identity does not conform to the social norms associated with your sex—alienation from social norms depends on the perpetuation of social norms. Thus if you are a gruff, muscular, assertive woman who has adopted the genderqueer label, girlishness must continue to be associated with garrulousness, weakness, and passivity for your identity to scan. > In short, the spectrum depends on stereotypes. About a year ago I started to question my sense of gender, and ended up arriving at the "genderqueer" label. But not because it felt most right, just less wrong than the other labels. About six months later I came to a similar conclusion as the above passage: so what if I don't do stereotypical $GENDER things, why should that prevent me from identifying as $GENDER? Doing anything else seemed like a special sort of narcissism, or a hobby -- not sure of the right words, but it seemed like a needless/useless waste of time and energy. That, combined with realizing that I don't want to define myself by my gender, helped me stop thinking about this for the most part and, i think not coincidentally, feel a lot happier about myself.

transman 10y ago
I battled with a lot of the same challenges, but ultimately, I am much more like the men in my life and much less like the women in my life. At a certain point, every gendered action, from saying my name (very female) to walking into the women's bathroom honestly felt like lying! So I transitioned. I've been so at peace with myself since transitioning! Ironically, I've also been able to be a more effective advocate for all genders because now I'm in the "boys club". By that I mean, pointing out when someone is treating men or women differently just because of gender, but also helping highlight when someone is expecting different treatment just because of their own gender. I'm both happier about myself and a more effective advocate for treating everyone equally!
- kough 10y ago
  I'm happy to hear that you were able to make a series of choices that made you happier! I hope that you didn't feel attacked by my comment -- the "needless/useless" comment was intended to be with regards to my own situation, not a prescription for others. I think it's an easy trap to fall in to, wanting to prescribe your own beliefs upon others and make the world in your own image ("if only they'd all just listen to me!"), but ultimately ineffective. > Ironically, I've also been able to be a more effective advocate for all genders because now I'm in the "boys club". By that I mean, pointing out when someone is treating men or women differently just because of gender, but also helping highlight when someone is expecting different treatment just because of their own gender. That's awesome! I like to think that I'm still an effective advocate for equality despite not identifying as genderqueer or taking any particular pains to present a certain way. As a logical extension of the beliefs and decisions described in my original comment, I try to do my best to set a positive role model by making myself happy while presenting as $GENDER rather than genderqueer. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.
  - transman 10y ago
    > I hope that you didn't feel attacked by my comment While I'm human and may have a visceral reaction to some things, I've also learned to regularly take a step back to check myself and my reactions. Written communication requires this even more so than face to face! > the "needless/useless" comment was intended to be with regards to my own situation, not a prescription for others. This is one of the hardest things for many people to understand. In a group therapy setting, one of the most common tenets (next to confidentiality) is the concept of "I" statements. In other words, the speaker should never speak for another person or tell another person what to do. You absolutely used an "I" statement approach, and I really appreciate that you did so! > > Ironically, I've also been able to be a more effective advocate for all genders because now I'm in the "boys club". It took me a while to embrace this perspective, precisely because it shouldn't matter. But there are people, men and women, who simply respond better when a person of a specific gender says something. Typically men have more authority. (There's actually a fair bit of research about this. For example, in the 'intelligent agent' community an agent that is given a white male appearance will be trusted more than the exact same agent with the appearance of a white female or a black agent of either gender). So, I've tried to harness this when it seems to be the most effective approach to address discrimination. Every now and then, I suspect the person I'm interacting with will respond better if they know my background, so on occasion I've come out so that I can more effectively communicate with the person. There are a couple of the reasons it took me so long to embrace this perspective. First, I want everyone to have an equal voice, in other words, I don't want my voice to count more now just because it's deeper and comes from a hairy face; unfortunately, we're not there yet. Second, I just want to be me, I don't constantly want to be in trans/gender advocacy mode. About a year after transitioning, I realized that because I was treated as a girl/woman by the world for so long (and a non-gender conforming one for many of those years) and I absolutely pass as a guy now, I really am in a very unusual place. So as much as I want to just hide out in the closet, I feel responsible to everyone to fight discrimination in a way that very few can. Based on your language and my time in the LGBTQ community, I'm assuming some things about your age. If I'm correct, just the fact that you questioned your gender and are discussing that process is a very different type of advocacy, but it is absolutely advocacy none the less! It's been nice being able to see the generational differences, and there's been so much progress since I first realized I was different! Interestingly, my mother went through a questioning period (long before there was any language for it) and came to a conclusion much like yours. So when I first came out to her as a young kid, she thought my questioning was normal, that I would outgrow it, and that it meant she needed to fight even more for women's rights (because she thought that was the root of it for me). In many respects, she was my strongest ally but also the most painful thorn in my side. Several years after I transitioned, there was an incident in which her language actually put my well-being in severe jeopardy. It took that incident before she realized her experience is not my experience, and that neither of our experiences is definitively right or wrong. Rather our experiences, reactions, and identity are simply our own. It was a painful period for both of us, but she's become an even stronger ally as a result. I look forward to a time when race, gender, age, etc. aren't used to justify violence or discrimination. Until then, I'll keep using my unusual position to advocate for movement toward that goal. Be the change, and all that. Between all of us, progress will continue.
mindslight 10y ago
I am unsure whether to take your comment as an example of repressed thinking, or as an oppressive attack. Please detail your anatomy so that I know whether to condescendingly "help" or to denounce you as an offensive shitlord.
- kough 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure you're joking, but honestly jokes like this hurt the discussion because Poe's Law really does seem to be true. EDIT: also, for the record, I upvoted you and did not flag you.
  - mindslight 10y ago
    I think someone who believed in earnest wouldn't state it so plainly but yeah, Poe's law. The real sin of my comment was not being constructive. But it's awfully hard to be constructive when the reward is to be written off for not being a member of a politically privileged class. Thanks for pointing out that comment got killed, which demonstrates those incentives. Things (on HN at least) do seem to be getting better - it was at least upvoted before the thought police got here. It's funny how short "nonconstructive" comments elsewhere are basically ignored, but apostasy of modern religion simply cannot stand! I advocated for these issues back when that served the goal of mutual understanding. Now their general form is used to perpetuate a lack of understanding - just another peacocking distinction for the age old groupthink bullying. I do feel sorry for the individuals who are actually different, currently serving as talking points by the clusterfuck of feel-gooders. They are the ones who will personally have to endure the inevitable closed-minded backlash after the popularity spotlight moves on.

by kough 10y ago

transman 10y ago

I battled with a lot of the same challenges, but ultimately, I am much more like the men in my life and much less like the women in my life. At a certain point, every gendered action, from saying my name (very female) to walking into the women's bathroom honestly felt like lying! So I transitioned. I've been so at peace with myself since transitioning! Ironically, I've also been able to be a more effective advocate for all genders because now I'm in the "boys club". By that I mean, pointing out when someone is treating men or women differently just because of gender, but also helping highlight when someone is expecting different treatment just because of their own gender. I'm both happier about myself and a more effective advocate for treating everyone equally!

kough 10y ago
I'm happy to hear that you were able to make a series of choices that made you happier! I hope that you didn't feel attacked by my comment -- the "needless/useless" comment was intended to be with regards to my own situation, not a prescription for others. I think it's an easy trap to fall in to, wanting to prescribe your own beliefs upon others and make the world in your own image ("if only they'd all just listen to me!"), but ultimately ineffective. > Ironically, I've also been able to be a more effective advocate for all genders because now I'm in the "boys club". By that I mean, pointing out when someone is treating men or women differently just because of gender, but also helping highlight when someone is expecting different treatment just because of their own gender. That's awesome! I like to think that I'm still an effective advocate for equality despite not identifying as genderqueer or taking any particular pains to present a certain way. As a logical extension of the beliefs and decisions described in my original comment, I try to do my best to set a positive role model by making myself happy while presenting as $GENDER rather than genderqueer. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.
- transman 10y ago
  > I hope that you didn't feel attacked by my comment While I'm human and may have a visceral reaction to some things, I've also learned to regularly take a step back to check myself and my reactions. Written communication requires this even more so than face to face! > the "needless/useless" comment was intended to be with regards to my own situation, not a prescription for others. This is one of the hardest things for many people to understand. In a group therapy setting, one of the most common tenets (next to confidentiality) is the concept of "I" statements. In other words, the speaker should never speak for another person or tell another person what to do. You absolutely used an "I" statement approach, and I really appreciate that you did so! > > Ironically, I've also been able to be a more effective advocate for all genders because now I'm in the "boys club". It took me a while to embrace this perspective, precisely because it shouldn't matter. But there are people, men and women, who simply respond better when a person of a specific gender says something. Typically men have more authority. (There's actually a fair bit of research about this. For example, in the 'intelligent agent' community an agent that is given a white male appearance will be trusted more than the exact same agent with the appearance of a white female or a black agent of either gender). So, I've tried to harness this when it seems to be the most effective approach to address discrimination. Every now and then, I suspect the person I'm interacting with will respond better if they know my background, so on occasion I've come out so that I can more effectively communicate with the person. There are a couple of the reasons it took me so long to embrace this perspective. First, I want everyone to have an equal voice, in other words, I don't want my voice to count more now just because it's deeper and comes from a hairy face; unfortunately, we're not there yet. Second, I just want to be me, I don't constantly want to be in trans/gender advocacy mode. About a year after transitioning, I realized that because I was treated as a girl/woman by the world for so long (and a non-gender conforming one for many of those years) and I absolutely pass as a guy now, I really am in a very unusual place. So as much as I want to just hide out in the closet, I feel responsible to everyone to fight discrimination in a way that very few can. Based on your language and my time in the LGBTQ community, I'm assuming some things about your age. If I'm correct, just the fact that you questioned your gender and are discussing that process is a very different type of advocacy, but it is absolutely advocacy none the less! It's been nice being able to see the generational differences, and there's been so much progress since I first realized I was different! Interestingly, my mother went through a questioning period (long before there was any language for it) and came to a conclusion much like yours. So when I first came out to her as a young kid, she thought my questioning was normal, that I would outgrow it, and that it meant she needed to fight even more for women's rights (because she thought that was the root of it for me). In many respects, she was my strongest ally but also the most painful thorn in my side. Several years after I transitioned, there was an incident in which her language actually put my well-being in severe jeopardy. It took that incident before she realized her experience is not my experience, and that neither of our experiences is definitively right or wrong. Rather our experiences, reactions, and identity are simply our own. It was a painful period for both of us, but she's become an even stronger ally as a result. I look forward to a time when race, gender, age, etc. aren't used to justify violence or discrimination. Until then, I'll keep using my unusual position to advocate for movement toward that goal. Be the change, and all that. Between all of us, progress will continue.

mindslight 10y ago

I am unsure whether to take your comment as an example of repressed thinking, or as an oppressive attack. Please detail your anatomy so that I know whether to condescendingly "help" or to denounce you as an offensive shitlord.

kough 10y ago
I'm pretty sure you're joking, but honestly jokes like this hurt the discussion because Poe's Law really does seem to be true. EDIT: also, for the record, I upvoted you and did not flag you.
- mindslight 10y ago
  I think someone who believed in earnest wouldn't state it so plainly but yeah, Poe's law. The real sin of my comment was not being constructive. But it's awfully hard to be constructive when the reward is to be written off for not being a member of a politically privileged class. Thanks for pointing out that comment got killed, which demonstrates those incentives. Things (on HN at least) do seem to be getting better - it was at least upvoted before the thought police got here. It's funny how short "nonconstructive" comments elsewhere are basically ignored, but apostasy of modern religion simply cannot stand! I advocated for these issues back when that served the goal of mutual understanding. Now their general form is used to perpetuate a lack of understanding - just another peacocking distinction for the age old groupthink bullying. I do feel sorry for the individuals who are actually different, currently serving as talking points by the clusterfuck of feel-gooders. They are the ones who will personally have to endure the inevitable closed-minded backlash after the popularity spotlight moves on.