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Similar things were said in the U.S. when we outlawed most forms of factory work for children. Our society became better when we did outlaw this. How about th

Similar things were said in the U.S. when we outlawed most forms of factory work for children. Our society became better when we did outlaw this. How about this form of outsourcing? Rather than Apple owning and managing the factory in question they contract it out so they can assuage their guilt when children end up working there.

derefr 17y ago
> Our society became better when we did outlaw this. Cite for this, please. As far as I know, we outlawed child factory labor purely because children, with their small bodies that could fit into more-easily-constructed mineshafts, dexterous hands that could assemble small parts, and lesser demand for pay, were being preferred for most jobs, and so adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure their own jobs were safe. This decreased efficiency, took a source of discretionary income away from children who wanted it (these weren't forced workers; they just took jobs to better their life), and artificially lowered the unemployment of adults who couldn't compete with kids.
- yequalsx 17y ago
  Is this a serious request? You want me to cite the basis for me stating that our society became better by outlawing the employment of children in factories and mines? This isn't obvious to you? I am grateful that people with your point of view didn't prevail when the United States confronted this issue.
  - Enra2 17y ago
    The US and the rest of the west experienced unprecedented per capita BNP growth since around the time western countries banned child labour. This is the reason for increased living standards. It would not have mattered much in the long run who prevailed because rich (by the standards of 1850 we pretty much all are) parents don't let their children work full time in factories.
    - yequalsx 17y ago
      But it would have mattered to the children who would have worked in the coal mines had they not been prevented from doing so by the government. In the long run you are correct but we should not let this be the reason for inaction.
      - Enra2 17y ago
        I think you may be assuming that either A) the children were forced to work or B) the children (and their parents) just did not know what was good for them. Both seem unlikely to me.
    - yequalsx 17y ago
      When I say the U.S. became a better country by outlawing child labor this had nothing to do with economics. We became better in a moral sense. We Americans equate, too often, the concept of better in a money sense. This is a bad trait amongst us. (I'm not saying you have this bad trait.)
      - Dove 17y ago
        I am not completely sure we are better off. Being barred from meaningful work is to the moral detriment of precocious kids. Not that we should let people in general subject themselves to danger they don't understand, and kids might lack judgement about that. And education absolutely shouldn't be blown off. But there's something appealing to me about kids being able to work real jobs if they're willing and capable. Something like this . . . http://www.bigheadpress.com/eft?page=14 http://www.bigheadpress.com/eft?page=14
- GHFigs 17y ago
  adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure their own jobs were safe Cite for this? Or a source on the topic in general? I don't mean to sound incredulous, it's just that you seem to be familiar with the subject.
philwelch 17y ago
The US passed laws against child labor when it did because it could afford to, ultimately. You don't find too many poor societies which spontaneously decide to build schools for everyone below the age of 18 and prohibit them from working. You might find a few where some foreign imperialists decided to build schools and send all of the country's youths to it, but I assume you're against that sort of thing. Notably, the US also decided for themselves when to pass such laws--they didn't have the matter dictated to them by the countries they exported goods to.
- yequalsx 17y ago
  I'm not suggesting we change the laws of China. I'm suggesting we don't benefit from the exploitation of labor. We stopped trading with the Apartheid regime for moral reasons. This was a good thing. Even capitalists should occasionally do the moral thing.

derefr 17y ago

> Our society became better when we did outlaw this. Cite for this, please. As far as I know, we outlawed child factory labor purely because children, with their small bodies that could fit into more-easily-constructed mineshafts, dexterous hands that could assemble small parts, and lesser demand for pay, were being preferred for most jobs, and so adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure their own jobs were safe. This decreased efficiency, took a source of discretionary income away from children who wanted it (these weren't forced workers; they just took jobs to better their life), and artificially lowered the unemployment of adults who couldn't compete with kids.

yequalsx 17y ago
Is this a serious request? You want me to cite the basis for me stating that our society became better by outlawing the employment of children in factories and mines? This isn't obvious to you? I am grateful that people with your point of view didn't prevail when the United States confronted this issue.
- Enra2 17y ago
  The US and the rest of the west experienced unprecedented per capita BNP growth since around the time western countries banned child labour. This is the reason for increased living standards. It would not have mattered much in the long run who prevailed because rich (by the standards of 1850 we pretty much all are) parents don't let their children work full time in factories.
  - yequalsx 17y ago
    But it would have mattered to the children who would have worked in the coal mines had they not been prevented from doing so by the government. In the long run you are correct but we should not let this be the reason for inaction.
    - Enra2 17y ago
      I think you may be assuming that either A) the children were forced to work or B) the children (and their parents) just did not know what was good for them. Both seem unlikely to me.
  - yequalsx 17y ago
    When I say the U.S. became a better country by outlawing child labor this had nothing to do with economics. We became better in a moral sense. We Americans equate, too often, the concept of better in a money sense. This is a bad trait amongst us. (I'm not saying you have this bad trait.)
    - Dove 17y ago
      I am not completely sure we are better off. Being barred from meaningful work is to the moral detriment of precocious kids. Not that we should let people in general subject themselves to danger they don't understand, and kids might lack judgement about that. And education absolutely shouldn't be blown off. But there's something appealing to me about kids being able to work real jobs if they're willing and capable. Something like this . . . http://www.bigheadpress.com/eft?page=14 http://www.bigheadpress.com/eft?page=14
GHFigs 17y ago
adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure their own jobs were safe Cite for this? Or a source on the topic in general? I don't mean to sound incredulous, it's just that you seem to be familiar with the subject.

philwelch 17y ago

The US passed laws against child labor when it did because it could afford to, ultimately. You don't find too many poor societies which spontaneously decide to build schools for everyone below the age of 18 and prohibit them from working. You might find a few where some foreign imperialists decided to build schools and send all of the country's youths to it, but I assume you're against that sort of thing. Notably, the US also decided for themselves when to pass such laws--they didn't have the matter dictated to them by the countries they exported goods to.

yequalsx 17y ago
I'm not suggesting we change the laws of China. I'm suggesting we don't benefit from the exploitation of labor. We stopped trading with the Apartheid regime for moral reasons. This was a good thing. Even capitalists should occasionally do the moral thing.