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Apple admits use of child labour in China

40 points by alexandros 17y ago

mithunk 17y ago
And how are going to make Apple force the issue with companies like Foxconn and Wintek? These conditions are the reason why Apple enjoys the margins it does.
- KC8ZKF 17y ago
  You make Apple force the issue with public outcry. It seems to be working; did you read the article?
  - yequalsx 17y ago
    Yeah, and how often does this occur? How many factories are contracted out to in China by American companies that aren't subjected to public outcry? Apple should face very severe sanctions for allowing this to happen. They are not innocent.
    - KC8ZKF 17y ago
      Apple audits their suppliers, finds violations and fixes them, so you want them punished? Not a very good way to encourage other companies to clean up their act.
      - yequalsx 17y ago
        If you are right about Apple then I retract my statement as it applies to Apple. However, this is not a legal requirement for companies who do business in the United States and it is not a standard practice. Even when it is standard for a company to do this it is done with a wink, so to speak. Companies and consumers in the United States (and Europe) are content to leave the issue of exploited labor out of the public debate. The general justification being that the companies don't actually hire the workers and so their hands are clean. It's convenient and immoral. My overall point stands and it is sad that it has been down voted so much. It reflects poorly on the social awareness of the rich.
        starkfist 17y ago
        If you are right about Apple then I retract my statement as it applies to Apple. It says as much in the linked article.
- heimidal 17y ago
  According to the article, they launched this audit and have already pressed the issue to the point that the three factories in question are no longer employing 15 year-olds. Apple enjoys high margins because of a very effective marketing strategy, excellent product design, and an extremely loyal customer base. It has nothing to do with the fact that their subcontractors were employing a few underage workers.
alexandros 17y ago
I understand the general sentiment against child labour, but somehow a 15-year old doesn't seem incapable of working at a factory. Child and teenager are diferent words, except when they're not. People have been working the fields from small ages throughout history. As long as the child didn't drop school or something else to go there, maybe getting a job was the best idea. Having a hard age limit just seems arbitrary, outsourcing the worries about worker mistreatment (a real problem) to a magical number. Perhaps, counterintuitively, not being able to get the amount of workers necessary for the cost allowed by apple's contract, leads manufacturers to press workers to work longer.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  agreed. "Child labour" should mean either young children or sweatshop style working. How many US/EU teens work paper rounds for less than minimum wage? :D
  - nfnaaron 17y ago
    Regardless of what the term should mean, if the law says it's illegal to employ a fifteen year old, and fifteen year olds are employed, then the law was broken. Routinely broken age labour laws, where records are purposely falsified, creates an environment where other labour laws, and laws in general, can be seen as obstacles to be subverted rather than protections and responsibilities. It's not a trivial thing. P.S I had two paper routes simultaneously when I was fourteen. P.P.S Can kids even get paper routes in the US these days? My limited observation is that it's now large routes driven by adults who throw papers from car windows.
    - joeyo 17y ago
      P.P.S Can kids even get paper routes in the US these days? My limited observation is that it's now large routes driven by adults who throw papers from car windows. I think it's a combination of fewer newspaper subscribers (meaning larger distances between each subscriber, so less practical for bikes/walking) and a culture where parents are afraid that their children will be harmed if allowed to bike around delivering papers (because cars or pedophiles or something else).
imok20 17y ago
I worked at a lab programming for minimum wage when I was 15; this isn't sweatshop work. Children are allowed to work in the US, too. (Though, certainly, not at factories.) The title is is misleading, as well: Apple contracts these oversea factories; they don't hire or force children to work for them. It's all a bit inflammatory.
- KC8ZKF 17y ago
  Did you work sixty hours a week when you were fifteen? "In its report, Apple revealed the sweatshop conditions inside the factories it uses. Apple admitted that at least 55 of the 102 factories that produce its goods were ignoring Apple's rule that staff cannot work more than 60 hours a week."
  - vishaldpatel 17y ago
    So there were 7 15 year olds at a factory in China. Most of the employees were adults here, but a few weren't. Perhaps this isn't an example of forced child labour, but rather some 15 year old being the primary bread winner for their family? Social safety nets aren't the same everywhere.
    - nfnaaron 17y ago
      Exactly. I'm in conflict here. I'm against exploitive child labour, but I can easily imagine the scenario you describe.
    - KC8ZKF 17y ago
      The social safety net does not have to be the same everywhere for us to make ethical decisions on the products we buy, or for a company to make ethical decisions about how their products are made. I'm sure these teenagers' wages were important to their families. I doubt they were saving up for a Xbox, but I can't exploit that fact because I want a cheaper Nano. I just can't. I'm glad Apple is taking care of this.
      - radu_floricica 17y ago
godDLL 17y ago
telegraph.co.uk: "Apple admits using child labour […] At least eleven 15-year-old children were discovered to be working last year in three factories which supply Apple.[…]" apple.com/supplierresponsibility/auditing-compliance.html: "In 2009, our audits identified 17 core violations: eight violations involving excessive recruitment fees; three cases where underage workers had been hired; three cases where our supplier contracted with noncertified vendors for hazardous waste disposal; and three cases of falsified records provided during the audit." "Apple discovered three facilities that had previously hired 15-year-old workers in countries where the minimum age for employment is 16. Across the three facilities, our auditors found records of 11 workers who had been hired prior to reaching the legal age, although the workers were no longer underage or no longer in active employment at the time of our audit." EDIT: Emphasis added to highlight relevant bits.
fiaz 17y ago
A relevant music video bringing awareness to child labor exploitation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrCalO5BDs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrCalO5BDs
Batsu 17y ago
"Apple admits using child labour" "Apple has admitted that child labour was used at the factories that build its computers, iPods and mobile phones." There's a world of difference between those two statements. The first being the headline, the second being the quick summary. Talk about link bait.
- alexandros 17y ago
  Which is why I've subtly modified the title here.
  - Batsu 17y ago
    Apologies, wasn't accusing you of baiting. I did notice that you changed the title :)
  - tvon 17y ago
    > "Apple admits use of child labour in China" Still reads as if Apple is doing this directly.
jrockway 17y ago
At least they don't let iPhone apps show boobs. They wouldn't want to "sully" their image.
- yequalsx 17y ago
  I don't know why you are getting down voted. It's says much about society that you are. People on this site get outraged about App Store policies but not about child labor and Apple's ability to wash it's hands because the labor was contracted through a third party and they periodically do audits. God forbid Apple actually own the factory that makes their products and ensures that no children ever work there.
  - philwelch 17y ago
    Apple may not own the factories (why the fuck would they, they're not a manufacturing company) but they do what they can to ensure children don't work in the factories that build their products. They've stopped doing business with the contractors that were using child labor. This story is the moral equivalent of turning "Apple fires employee for kicking co-worker in crotch" to "Apple caught kicking employees in crotch".
    - yequalsx 17y ago
      No, it isn't the same moral equivalence. WalMart contracts out its night time cleaning. They didn't do this in the early days but they do it now. Of course one of the companies ended up hiring illegal workers and treating them badly and naturally WalMart claimed innocence. They didn't hire the workers. The company that did this lost its contract with WalMart. It's the don't ask, don't tell policy that corporations love to engage in so they can wash their hands clean for a gullible public.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
    - yequalsx 17y ago
jballanc 17y ago
Please, if you are in favor of child labour and worker exploitation, the best thing you could do is express your outrage at Apple for independently auditing, investigating, and punishing their suppliers for these practices. I think all American companies should know that, if they take it upon themselves to reveal what is already happening in China in an attempt to right the wrong, they will be rewarded with sensationalist headlines, public outrage, and bad press all for the sake of page views. Oh, and you might want to read the other side of this story: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/02/27/apple_taken_to_task_for_reporting_partners_child_labor_violations.html http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/02/27/apple_taken_to...
- bravura 17y ago
  How completely repulsive is child labor? Is that worse, or it is worse to deny being the father of your child, and being a deadbeat dad who forces your baby's momma to support your child using welfare? "Jobs also has a daughter, Lisa Brennan-Jobs (born 1978), from his relationship with Bay Area painter Chrisann Brennan. She briefly raised their daughter on welfare when Jobs denied paternity, claiming that he was sterile; he later acknowledged paternity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Personal_life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Personal_life
  - philwelch 17y ago
    I don't think anyone considers Jobs a morally exemplary person for that, but there's no point bringing it up in a totally unrelated discussion.
    - bravura 17y ago
      I slept on it, and I stand by my comment. The moral character of the company is being discussed here. The moral character of the CEO is completely germane to this discussion.
- Auzy 17y ago
  Actually, I'm not sure I believe the "pro-Apple" story entirely. It states "During most of our audits, suppliers stated that Apple was the only company that had ever audited their facility for supplier responsibility". Seriously, who the hell asks their suppliers if they have been audited by other clients? I think its great Apple audited their supplier, but I'm not convinced we have the full story (in fact, its possible they were tipped off in this case too, and that's why the age audit was initiated). I should also add that we shouldn't praise hardware companies for performing an audit once or twice. Furthermore, they certainly aren't penalising their suppliers for their poor working conditions! All that will happen is a few underage workers will stop working. The living conditions will still be a joke, workers mistreated, and the dodgy supplier wont suffer in any way (other than needing to find replacements).

40 points by alexandros 17y ago

And how are going to make Apple force the issue with companies like Foxconn and Wintek? These conditions are the reason why Apple enjoys the margins it does.

KC8ZKF 17y ago
You make Apple force the issue with public outcry. It seems to be working; did you read the article?
- yequalsx 17y ago
  Yeah, and how often does this occur? How many factories are contracted out to in China by American companies that aren't subjected to public outcry? Apple should face very severe sanctions for allowing this to happen. They are not innocent.
  - KC8ZKF 17y ago
    Apple audits their suppliers, finds violations and fixes them, so you want them punished? Not a very good way to encourage other companies to clean up their act.
    - yequalsx 17y ago
      If you are right about Apple then I retract my statement as it applies to Apple. However, this is not a legal requirement for companies who do business in the United States and it is not a standard practice. Even when it is standard for a company to do this it is done with a wink, so to speak. Companies and consumers in the United States (and Europe) are content to leave the issue of exploited labor out of the public debate. The general justification being that the companies don't actually hire the workers and so their hands are clean. It's convenient and immoral. My overall point stands and it is sad that it has been down voted so much. It reflects poorly on the social awareness of the rich.
      - starkfist 17y ago
        If you are right about Apple then I retract my statement as it applies to Apple. It says as much in the linked article.
heimidal 17y ago
According to the article, they launched this audit and have already pressed the issue to the point that the three factories in question are no longer employing 15 year-olds. Apple enjoys high margins because of a very effective marketing strategy, excellent product design, and an extremely loyal customer base. It has nothing to do with the fact that their subcontractors were employing a few underage workers.

alexandros 17y ago

I understand the general sentiment against child labour, but somehow a 15-year old doesn't seem incapable of working at a factory. Child and teenager are diferent words, except when they're not. People have been working the fields from small ages throughout history. As long as the child didn't drop school or something else to go there, maybe getting a job was the best idea. Having a hard age limit just seems arbitrary, outsourcing the worries about worker mistreatment (a real problem) to a magical number. Perhaps, counterintuitively, not being able to get the amount of workers necessary for the cost allowed by apple's contract, leads manufacturers to press workers to work longer.

ErrantX 17y ago
agreed. "Child labour" should mean either young children or sweatshop style working. How many US/EU teens work paper rounds for less than minimum wage? :D
- nfnaaron 17y ago
  Regardless of what the term should mean, if the law says it's illegal to employ a fifteen year old, and fifteen year olds are employed, then the law was broken. Routinely broken age labour laws, where records are purposely falsified, creates an environment where other labour laws, and laws in general, can be seen as obstacles to be subverted rather than protections and responsibilities. It's not a trivial thing. P.S I had two paper routes simultaneously when I was fourteen. P.P.S Can kids even get paper routes in the US these days? My limited observation is that it's now large routes driven by adults who throw papers from car windows.
  - joeyo 17y ago
    P.P.S Can kids even get paper routes in the US these days? My limited observation is that it's now large routes driven by adults who throw papers from car windows. I think it's a combination of fewer newspaper subscribers (meaning larger distances between each subscriber, so less practical for bikes/walking) and a culture where parents are afraid that their children will be harmed if allowed to bike around delivering papers (because cars or pedophiles or something else).

imok20 17y ago

I worked at a lab programming for minimum wage when I was 15; this isn't sweatshop work. Children are allowed to work in the US, too. (Though, certainly, not at factories.) The title is is misleading, as well: Apple contracts these oversea factories; they don't hire or force children to work for them. It's all a bit inflammatory.

KC8ZKF 17y ago
Did you work sixty hours a week when you were fifteen? "In its report, Apple revealed the sweatshop conditions inside the factories it uses. Apple admitted that at least 55 of the 102 factories that produce its goods were ignoring Apple's rule that staff cannot work more than 60 hours a week."
- vishaldpatel 17y ago
  So there were 7 15 year olds at a factory in China. Most of the employees were adults here, but a few weren't. Perhaps this isn't an example of forced child labour, but rather some 15 year old being the primary bread winner for their family? Social safety nets aren't the same everywhere.
  - nfnaaron 17y ago
    Exactly. I'm in conflict here. I'm against exploitive child labour, but I can easily imagine the scenario you describe.
  - KC8ZKF 17y ago
    The social safety net does not have to be the same everywhere for us to make ethical decisions on the products we buy, or for a company to make ethical decisions about how their products are made. I'm sure these teenagers' wages were important to their families. I doubt they were saving up for a Xbox, but I can't exploit that fact because I want a cheaper Nano. I just can't. I'm glad Apple is taking care of this.
    - radu_floricica 17y ago

godDLL 17y ago

telegraph.co.uk: "Apple admits using child labour […] At least eleven 15-year-old children were discovered to be working last year in three factories which supply Apple.[…]" apple.com/supplierresponsibility/auditing-compliance.html: "In 2009, our audits identified 17 core violations: eight violations involving excessive recruitment fees; three cases where underage workers had been hired; three cases where our supplier contracted with noncertified vendors for hazardous waste disposal; and three cases of falsified records provided during the audit." "Apple discovered three facilities that had previously hired 15-year-old workers in countries where the minimum age for employment is 16. Across the three facilities, our auditors found records of 11 workers who had been hired prior to reaching the legal age, although the workers were no longer underage or no longer in active employment at the time of our audit." EDIT: Emphasis added to highlight relevant bits.

fiaz 17y ago

A relevant music video bringing awareness to child labor exploitation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrCalO5BDs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrCalO5BDs

Batsu 17y ago

"Apple admits using child labour" "Apple has admitted that child labour was used at the factories that build its computers, iPods and mobile phones." There's a world of difference between those two statements. The first being the headline, the second being the quick summary. Talk about link bait.

alexandros 17y ago
Which is why I've subtly modified the title here.
- Batsu 17y ago
  Apologies, wasn't accusing you of baiting. I did notice that you changed the title :)
- tvon 17y ago
  > "Apple admits use of child labour in China" Still reads as if Apple is doing this directly.

jrockway 17y ago

At least they don't let iPhone apps show boobs. They wouldn't want to "sully" their image.

yequalsx 17y ago
I don't know why you are getting down voted. It's says much about society that you are. People on this site get outraged about App Store policies but not about child labor and Apple's ability to wash it's hands because the labor was contracted through a third party and they periodically do audits. God forbid Apple actually own the factory that makes their products and ensures that no children ever work there.
- philwelch 17y ago
  Apple may not own the factories (why the fuck would they, they're not a manufacturing company) but they do what they can to ensure children don't work in the factories that build their products. They've stopped doing business with the contractors that were using child labor. This story is the moral equivalent of turning "Apple fires employee for kicking co-worker in crotch" to "Apple caught kicking employees in crotch".
  - yequalsx 17y ago
    No, it isn't the same moral equivalence. WalMart contracts out its night time cleaning. They didn't do this in the early days but they do it now. Of course one of the companies ended up hiring illegal workers and treating them badly and naturally WalMart claimed innocence. They didn't hire the workers. The company that did this lost its contract with WalMart. It's the don't ask, don't tell policy that corporations love to engage in so they can wash their hands clean for a gullible public.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
  - yequalsx 17y ago

jballanc 17y ago

Please, if you are in favor of child labour and worker exploitation, the best thing you could do is express your outrage at Apple for independently auditing, investigating, and punishing their suppliers for these practices. I think all American companies should know that, if they take it upon themselves to reveal what is already happening in China in an attempt to right the wrong, they will be rewarded with sensationalist headlines, public outrage, and bad press all for the sake of page views. Oh, and you might want to read the other side of this story: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/02/27/apple_taken_to_task_for_reporting_partners_child_labor_violations.html http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/02/27/apple_taken_to...

bravura 17y ago
How completely repulsive is child labor? Is that worse, or it is worse to deny being the father of your child, and being a deadbeat dad who forces your baby's momma to support your child using welfare? "Jobs also has a daughter, Lisa Brennan-Jobs (born 1978), from his relationship with Bay Area painter Chrisann Brennan. She briefly raised their daughter on welfare when Jobs denied paternity, claiming that he was sterile; he later acknowledged paternity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Personal_life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Personal_life
- philwelch 17y ago
  I don't think anyone considers Jobs a morally exemplary person for that, but there's no point bringing it up in a totally unrelated discussion.
  - bravura 17y ago
    I slept on it, and I stand by my comment. The moral character of the company is being discussed here. The moral character of the CEO is completely germane to this discussion.
Auzy 17y ago
Actually, I'm not sure I believe the "pro-Apple" story entirely. It states "During most of our audits, suppliers stated that Apple was the only company that had ever audited their facility for supplier responsibility". Seriously, who the hell asks their suppliers if they have been audited by other clients? I think its great Apple audited their supplier, but I'm not convinced we have the full story (in fact, its possible they were tipped off in this case too, and that's why the age audit was initiated). I should also add that we shouldn't praise hardware companies for performing an audit once or twice. Furthermore, they certainly aren't penalising their suppliers for their poor working conditions! All that will happen is a few underage workers will stop working. The living conditions will still be a joke, workers mistreated, and the dodgy supplier wont suffer in any way (other than needing to find replacements).