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I live in a rural area in tornado alley. We also live on a major fault line, so there are a few potential "big ones" that could affect my area. I spent quite a

I live in a rural area in tornado alley. We also live on a major fault line, so there are a few potential "big ones" that could affect my area. I spent quite a bit of time thinking about that, trying to figure out what to do in order to be prepared for a realistic disaster. What I ended up deciding was that I can afford to help my neighbors (and whoever else may show up). I have an extensive first-aid setup, stuff to purify water, tons of trash bags, and some easy-to-prepare food. If we have a major disaster in my area, I plan to distribute as much of that as I can. For a fairly small investment I have enough stuff to keep everyone on my street healthy and fed for about a month even if their pantries are empty. No Mad Max necessary. As an interesting side note, as part of that process I did some calculating on relative costs and discovered that you can buy enough storable basic calories (white flour, stabilized cooking oil, and sugar - no health food here) to feed about 100 people for a month for less than it costs to get a single mid-grade rifle with no ammunition (about $1000). To me, that's the best answer to the idea that being prepared means getting armed to the teeth and fighting off the ravening hordes. I may be wrong, but I agree with the thesis of this article that people tend to band together and try to help each other in a disaster, so I built a plan around that assumption.

hga 10y ago
That's a thesis that noted survivialist Bruce Clayton developed in the early '80s or so, although he went with whole wheat, and add some salt and powdered milk for the Mormon Four plus the oil, which is needed by children for them to thrive (see more details in Nuclear War Survival Skills if interested, which Clayton recommended before any of his books). In my world view, you're better off with "A kind word and a gun", food etc. plus the ability to restrain bad actors, should any turn up. Some just might, as seen when an EF-5 tornado roared through my home town of Joplin, MO, but tornadoes, at least, have very limited effects, you don't have to walk far to get out of the areas of destruction. If the New Madrid fault goes you've very much want such preparations already in place.
- aethertap 10y ago
  Thanks for the pointer to Bruce Clayton, I'll have to look him up. I don't mean to come across as being against having the gun - I actually agree with your "kind word and gun" idea. I just wanted to get the point out about how much relief can be accomplished with that money because I think it gets missed in a lot of discussions, and of the two it seems a lot more likely to be relevant in a real disaster to me.
  - hga 10y ago
    Here's my recommendations from the classic era of survivalism (mid-late-70s through the '80s): Nuclear War Survival Skills, get a PDF to see if it's interesting to you (e.g. http://www.oism.org/nwss/ http://www.oism.org/nwss/), get the green softcover for when the lights go out and for accurate patterns for the Kearny Fallout Meter: http://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-War-Survival-Skills-Expanded/dp/094248701X http://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-War-Survival-Skills-Expanded/d... (it says something about the times that Amazon is keeping it in stock, they didn't a few years ago) or from the publisher (previous link). This is the bible of expedient nuclear war survival, everything from quick to build shelters to sprouting wheat to avoid vitamin deficiency diseases, based on many years of serious research at Oak Ridge, and tested, they'd go so far as to hand a copy of shelter plans to average American families, and then videotape them following the plan, and improve the design based on that. Vs. too many of those classic Civil Defense shelter plans drawn up by bureaucrats in the Beltway that would kill their inhabitants due to too little ventilation to remove heat and humidity. Maybe then check out his recently published Jungle Snafus ... and Remedies, his hardcore work on survival started in WWII, and he started thinking about nuclear war survival in the mid-late '30s (sic) after learning about the idea of nuclear weapons while at Princeton (quite a few people thought and wrote about it before the details were worked out after E=mc^2 and all that, see e.g. the SF of the pre-end of WWII era). Then Bruce Clayton's magnum opus, Life After Doomsday, get the Dial Press paperback which has annotations and comments made after the first edition: http://www.amazon.com/Life-after-doomsday-survivalist-disasters/dp/0803747527/ http://www.amazon.com/Life-after-doomsday-survivalist-disast... And perhaps check out some of his other works, the food for others concept was not, as I recall, originally published in Thinking About Survival http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-About-Survival-Bruce-Clayton/dp/0873642937/ http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-About-Survival-Bruce-Clayton/... but you'll find it there (probably originally published in an issue of the hard to find Mel Tappan Personal Survival Letter). The other two major intellectuals of the era were Jerry Pournelle, see his two relevant novels coauthored with Larry Niven, Lucifer's Hammer and Footfall, and Mel Tappan, start with his Tappan on Survival: http://www.amazon.com/Tappan-Survival-Mel/dp/1581605099/ http://www.amazon.com/Tappan-Survival-Mel/dp/1581605099/ The obscure and now very expensive used Bad Times Primer by C. G. Cobb had insighs, especially on survival on a budget, I didn't find anywhere else at the time (there is of course the new wave of "prepper" thought and literature that's no doubt worth checking out that might cover things like that): http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Times-Primer-Complete-Survival/dp/0960660801/ http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Times-Primer-Complete-Survival/dp/... Finally, Total Resistance http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640217/ http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640... is the manual on sane armed resistance and such, commissioned by the Swiss Non-commissioned Officer's Association, very Swiss vs. USSR invasion and '50s-ish, it's not written by wild eye idiots. Much updating and thought is required, of course, but I would start with that foundation, and for best reading quality, track down the original hardback, I think the publisher reproduced the paperback edition from it. For modern works, I'll only note The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457/ http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Econo... since it's written from the author's experience of a less than total collapse in Argentina. See also people's writeups of the much worse collapse and warfare in post-Cold War Yugoslavia.
douche 10y ago
I think you are over-pricing the cost of that rifle. A used, good condition, .30 caliber semi-automatic hunting rifle can be obtained for $300-$500. At least that's what I paid for my deer rifle, a 742 Remington. Granted, buying brand new would run you into that $1000 dollar range, but I've always been of the opinion that you should let some other sucker deal with manufacturing defects and the huge initial depreciation. That being said, a firearm that you don't practice with isn't much good either. If shooting was as easy as the video games and movies make it look...
- aethertap 10y ago
  Good points. I was originally comparing the food to retail for a mid-level AR-15 because that seems to be one of the most common choices for a defensive rifle. You're definitely right that you could get something very capable for a lot less.
  - hga 10y ago
    However, a hunting rifle like the 742 Remington isn't necessarily going to have the tolerances to allow sustained firing that a proper AR-15 pattern rifle will allow (I'm sure many of them made for civilians cargo cult that detail). On the other hand, a lot of this is scenario dependent. Bruce Clayton advised using the metric of "how many firefights do you think you can survive?" as a guide for how much ammo to store. I myself, if I expect a scenario to be survivable and am by myself, prefer something like a bolt action Scout rifle in .308/7.62 NATO used in shoot once and scoot mode. My evil black rifle in 5.56 NATO (which I'll note requires something better than FMJ ammo to be effective) is reserved for situations where I want to make the best account of myself and/or are with other people in a mutually defending scenario.
rdiddly 10y ago
That investment will yield a lot in loyalty. You'll have 100 people looking out for your interests, which are now their interests. "Winning hearts and minds." That seems a lot more valuable than trying to play Omega Man. In fact, start shooting people and you are going to generate nothing but vendettas, and eventually you'll have 100 people out to get you. Spoiler alert: The Omega Man dies at the end of the movie. All of this is just blowing my mind today. Who knew the "apocalypse" was just another 1-percenter meme, and that the self-styled "free-thinkers" walking around believing it -- including me -- were actually engaging in the most craven, compliant subservience against their own interests!
- aethertap 10y ago
  > Who knew the "apocalypse" was just another 1-percenter meme, and that the self-styled "free-thinkers" walking around believing it Interesting thought, that's never occurred to me before. It does seem strange now that you mention it that everyone expects their neighbors to turn into flesh eating monsters when the lights go out though, particularly when there's so little evidence to support the idea. It would be interesting to trace it back to its roots to see how it got started. Maybe it's an ancient holdover from the Bronze Age Collapse.
dsfyu404ed 10y ago
If you're gonna buy a rifle to have "just in case" then spend $100-$150 on a Mosin Nagant and $100ish on a 400rd can of ammo...

hga 10y ago

That's a thesis that noted survivialist Bruce Clayton developed in the early '80s or so, although he went with whole wheat, and add some salt and powdered milk for the Mormon Four plus the oil, which is needed by children for them to thrive (see more details in Nuclear War Survival Skills if interested, which Clayton recommended before any of his books). In my world view, you're better off with "A kind word and a gun", food etc. plus the ability to restrain bad actors, should any turn up. Some just might, as seen when an EF-5 tornado roared through my home town of Joplin, MO, but tornadoes, at least, have very limited effects, you don't have to walk far to get out of the areas of destruction. If the New Madrid fault goes you've very much want such preparations already in place.

aethertap 10y ago
Thanks for the pointer to Bruce Clayton, I'll have to look him up. I don't mean to come across as being against having the gun - I actually agree with your "kind word and gun" idea. I just wanted to get the point out about how much relief can be accomplished with that money because I think it gets missed in a lot of discussions, and of the two it seems a lot more likely to be relevant in a real disaster to me.
- hga 10y ago
  Here's my recommendations from the classic era of survivalism (mid-late-70s through the '80s): Nuclear War Survival Skills, get a PDF to see if it's interesting to you (e.g. http://www.oism.org/nwss/ http://www.oism.org/nwss/), get the green softcover for when the lights go out and for accurate patterns for the Kearny Fallout Meter: http://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-War-Survival-Skills-Expanded/dp/094248701X http://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-War-Survival-Skills-Expanded/d... (it says something about the times that Amazon is keeping it in stock, they didn't a few years ago) or from the publisher (previous link). This is the bible of expedient nuclear war survival, everything from quick to build shelters to sprouting wheat to avoid vitamin deficiency diseases, based on many years of serious research at Oak Ridge, and tested, they'd go so far as to hand a copy of shelter plans to average American families, and then videotape them following the plan, and improve the design based on that. Vs. too many of those classic Civil Defense shelter plans drawn up by bureaucrats in the Beltway that would kill their inhabitants due to too little ventilation to remove heat and humidity. Maybe then check out his recently published Jungle Snafus ... and Remedies, his hardcore work on survival started in WWII, and he started thinking about nuclear war survival in the mid-late '30s (sic) after learning about the idea of nuclear weapons while at Princeton (quite a few people thought and wrote about it before the details were worked out after E=mc^2 and all that, see e.g. the SF of the pre-end of WWII era). Then Bruce Clayton's magnum opus, Life After Doomsday, get the Dial Press paperback which has annotations and comments made after the first edition: http://www.amazon.com/Life-after-doomsday-survivalist-disasters/dp/0803747527/ http://www.amazon.com/Life-after-doomsday-survivalist-disast... And perhaps check out some of his other works, the food for others concept was not, as I recall, originally published in Thinking About Survival http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-About-Survival-Bruce-Clayton/dp/0873642937/ http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-About-Survival-Bruce-Clayton/... but you'll find it there (probably originally published in an issue of the hard to find Mel Tappan Personal Survival Letter). The other two major intellectuals of the era were Jerry Pournelle, see his two relevant novels coauthored with Larry Niven, Lucifer's Hammer and Footfall, and Mel Tappan, start with his Tappan on Survival: http://www.amazon.com/Tappan-Survival-Mel/dp/1581605099/ http://www.amazon.com/Tappan-Survival-Mel/dp/1581605099/ The obscure and now very expensive used Bad Times Primer by C. G. Cobb had insighs, especially on survival on a budget, I didn't find anywhere else at the time (there is of course the new wave of "prepper" thought and literature that's no doubt worth checking out that might cover things like that): http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Times-Primer-Complete-Survival/dp/0960660801/ http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Times-Primer-Complete-Survival/dp/... Finally, Total Resistance http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640217/ http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640... is the manual on sane armed resistance and such, commissioned by the Swiss Non-commissioned Officer's Association, very Swiss vs. USSR invasion and '50s-ish, it's not written by wild eye idiots. Much updating and thought is required, of course, but I would start with that foundation, and for best reading quality, track down the original hardback, I think the publisher reproduced the paperback edition from it. For modern works, I'll only note The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457/ http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Econo... since it's written from the author's experience of a less than total collapse in Argentina. See also people's writeups of the much worse collapse and warfare in post-Cold War Yugoslavia.

douche 10y ago

I think you are over-pricing the cost of that rifle. A used, good condition, .30 caliber semi-automatic hunting rifle can be obtained for $300-$500. At least that's what I paid for my deer rifle, a 742 Remington. Granted, buying brand new would run you into that $1000 dollar range, but I've always been of the opinion that you should let some other sucker deal with manufacturing defects and the huge initial depreciation. That being said, a firearm that you don't practice with isn't much good either. If shooting was as easy as the video games and movies make it look...

aethertap 10y ago
Good points. I was originally comparing the food to retail for a mid-level AR-15 because that seems to be one of the most common choices for a defensive rifle. You're definitely right that you could get something very capable for a lot less.
- hga 10y ago
  However, a hunting rifle like the 742 Remington isn't necessarily going to have the tolerances to allow sustained firing that a proper AR-15 pattern rifle will allow (I'm sure many of them made for civilians cargo cult that detail). On the other hand, a lot of this is scenario dependent. Bruce Clayton advised using the metric of "how many firefights do you think you can survive?" as a guide for how much ammo to store. I myself, if I expect a scenario to be survivable and am by myself, prefer something like a bolt action Scout rifle in .308/7.62 NATO used in shoot once and scoot mode. My evil black rifle in 5.56 NATO (which I'll note requires something better than FMJ ammo to be effective) is reserved for situations where I want to make the best account of myself and/or are with other people in a mutually defending scenario.

rdiddly 10y ago

That investment will yield a lot in loyalty. You'll have 100 people looking out for your interests, which are now their interests. "Winning hearts and minds." That seems a lot more valuable than trying to play Omega Man. In fact, start shooting people and you are going to generate nothing but vendettas, and eventually you'll have 100 people out to get you. Spoiler alert: The Omega Man dies at the end of the movie. All of this is just blowing my mind today. Who knew the "apocalypse" was just another 1-percenter meme, and that the self-styled "free-thinkers" walking around believing it -- including me -- were actually engaging in the most craven, compliant subservience against their own interests!

aethertap 10y ago
> Who knew the "apocalypse" was just another 1-percenter meme, and that the self-styled "free-thinkers" walking around believing it Interesting thought, that's never occurred to me before. It does seem strange now that you mention it that everyone expects their neighbors to turn into flesh eating monsters when the lights go out though, particularly when there's so little evidence to support the idea. It would be interesting to trace it back to its roots to see how it got started. Maybe it's an ancient holdover from the Bronze Age Collapse.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago

If you're gonna buy a rifle to have "just in case" then spend $100-$150 on a Mosin Nagant and $100ish on a 400rd can of ammo...