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I guess, the Snowden incidence is being used to hurl undue venom towards USA. But these people are ignoring or deliberately misleading other people to ignore th

by tmptmp 10y ago

I guess, the Snowden incidence is being used to hurl undue venom towards USA. But these people are ignoring or deliberately misleading other people to ignore the real dangers posed by extremists (including Islamists, communists, the far right Christians and so on). These ideologically driven criminals (called terrorists) live hidden in the general public. Their identification is a main problem. This "identification" problem is what requires mass surveillance. The terrorists are significantly different than many other criminals. In the sense that terrorists are not mainly driven by personal and earthly goals but they are driven by the goals set by their ideologies. Thus terrorism (inspired by hate ideology or religion) is significantly different in a very important respect from other crimes; that is, the terrorist(s) generally find support and shelter amongst large number of otherwise normal citizens inspired/driven by the hate ideology or religion whereas a murderer or a pedophile generally doesn't find such shelter. Tell this Snowden to do (or at least talk) a little bit about the dire situation of people's freedom in the country he has chosen to flee to, namely, Russia. And the people who are criticizing US way too much should do themselves a favor by looking at countries run by tyrants like China, North Korea, most Islamist countries and Cuba. The way the Chinese government does the mass surveillance of its citizens on the Internet and the way the communists have installed the reward/punishment system based on it will make you realize that what is happening in US is hardly even annoying. I am not to say that US is innocent person but it has been receiving criticism way too much. Edit: typo

specialist 10y ago
"...people's freedom in the country he has chosen to flee to, namely, Russia." Snowden got stuck in a Russian airport when his US visa got revoked. He then applied to many countries for asylum. Russia granted it. I've read that Snowden is still trying to find another host country.
mercurial 10y ago
> I guess, the Snowden incidence is being used to hurl undue venom towards USA. But these people are ignoring or deliberately misleading other people to ignore the real dangers posed by extremists (including Islamists, communists, the far right Christians and so on). Yeah, well, I don't think Cuban or North Korean spies are really at the forefront of anyone's concerns (apart from South Korea and Japan). > Thus terrorism (inspired by hate ideology or religion) is significantly different in a very important respect from other crimes; that is, the terrorist(s) generally find support and shelter amongst large number of otherwise normal citizens inspired/driven by the hate ideology or religion whereas a murderer or a pedophile generally doesn't find such shelter. Funny how pedophile rings are regularly dismantled (and made of "otherwise normal citizens" in majority). As for the "wolf in sheep's clothing" thing, it's not necessarily true (look at the profile of the attackers in France and Belgian, most of whom were linked to petty criminality - not to mention the guy who actually went to Syria). > Tell this Snowden to do (or at least talk) a little bit about the dire situation of people's freedom in the country he has chosen to flee to, namely, Russia. It was only a choice in the sense that the alternative was "kidnapping by the CIA". Russia was way down in Snowden's list of countries to flee to. What you don't seem to realize is that even if it's not abused now, it could very well be abused tomorrow. You want a Donald Trump nominating one of his cronies at the head of the US intelligence services and starting to dig into untold amounts of already-recorded communications? And it's not only the US. Us Europeans are doing exactly the same thing, just with less money. The potential of it being abused by organizations which by their very nature have little to no external oversight (or by their political masters) is absolutely frightening. And that's compounded by the panopticon effect: if you're never sure of how much you're being watched, you will self-censor.
- tmptmp 10y ago
  >>You want a Donald Trump nominating one of his cronies at the head of the US intelligence services and starting to dig into untold amounts of already-recorded communications? Still a Donald Trump in USA is far better and very less dangerous as compared to the tyrants like Mao or Stalin or Castro, because USA has many good checks and balances in place. I do appreciate people's fears about state becoming tyrannical but people in USA should not allow its enemies to use (exploit) such fear to push forward their agenda and make US a weak and vulnerable state. The people of USA should recognize this. The important point to note here is that the intellectuals (Snowden and his supporters) who are targeting USA both at national and international level were silent about the extremely intrusive surveillance and other atrocities inflicted by the tyrants like Putin (at whose place Snowden may be currently enjoying his reward) and are still silent.
  - mercurial 10y ago
    > Still a Donald Trump in USA is far better and very less dangerous as compared to the tyrants like Mao or Stalin or Castro, because USA has many good checks and balances in place. How do you think Hoover stayed in place that long? You can pull a great many things without needing to disappear people at four in the morning. > The important point to note here is that the intellectuals (Snowden and his supporters) who are targeting USA both at national and international level were silent about the extremely intrusive surveillance and other atrocities inflicted by the tyrants like Putin (at whose place Snowden may be currently enjoying his reward) and are still silent. Snowden was not a public figure before. And you really think a life of exile in Russia is some kind of reward? That said, I think Snowden is against global surveillance in general, but: a) I can totally understand that you want to tread carefully in this kind of situation. You don't think he has already given up enough? What would you do in his situation? b) While Putin is certainly more willing to suppress political opponents, I doubt the Russian surveillance network is even remotely in the same league as the NSA c) Snowden is no doubt a lot more qualified to speak about Western surveillance than he is about Russian or Chinese efforts
    - tmptmp 10y ago

by tmptmp 10y ago

specialist 10y ago

"...people's freedom in the country he has chosen to flee to, namely, Russia." Snowden got stuck in a Russian airport when his US visa got revoked. He then applied to many countries for asylum. Russia granted it. I've read that Snowden is still trying to find another host country.

mercurial 10y ago

> I guess, the Snowden incidence is being used to hurl undue venom towards USA. But these people are ignoring or deliberately misleading other people to ignore the real dangers posed by extremists (including Islamists, communists, the far right Christians and so on). Yeah, well, I don't think Cuban or North Korean spies are really at the forefront of anyone's concerns (apart from South Korea and Japan). > Thus terrorism (inspired by hate ideology or religion) is significantly different in a very important respect from other crimes; that is, the terrorist(s) generally find support and shelter amongst large number of otherwise normal citizens inspired/driven by the hate ideology or religion whereas a murderer or a pedophile generally doesn't find such shelter. Funny how pedophile rings are regularly dismantled (and made of "otherwise normal citizens" in majority). As for the "wolf in sheep's clothing" thing, it's not necessarily true (look at the profile of the attackers in France and Belgian, most of whom were linked to petty criminality - not to mention the guy who actually went to Syria). > Tell this Snowden to do (or at least talk) a little bit about the dire situation of people's freedom in the country he has chosen to flee to, namely, Russia. It was only a choice in the sense that the alternative was "kidnapping by the CIA". Russia was way down in Snowden's list of countries to flee to. What you don't seem to realize is that even if it's not abused now, it could very well be abused tomorrow. You want a Donald Trump nominating one of his cronies at the head of the US intelligence services and starting to dig into untold amounts of already-recorded communications? And it's not only the US. Us Europeans are doing exactly the same thing, just with less money. The potential of it being abused by organizations which by their very nature have little to no external oversight (or by their political masters) is absolutely frightening. And that's compounded by the panopticon effect: if you're never sure of how much you're being watched, you will self-censor.

tmptmp 10y ago
>>You want a Donald Trump nominating one of his cronies at the head of the US intelligence services and starting to dig into untold amounts of already-recorded communications? Still a Donald Trump in USA is far better and very less dangerous as compared to the tyrants like Mao or Stalin or Castro, because USA has many good checks and balances in place. I do appreciate people's fears about state becoming tyrannical but people in USA should not allow its enemies to use (exploit) such fear to push forward their agenda and make US a weak and vulnerable state. The people of USA should recognize this. The important point to note here is that the intellectuals (Snowden and his supporters) who are targeting USA both at national and international level were silent about the extremely intrusive surveillance and other atrocities inflicted by the tyrants like Putin (at whose place Snowden may be currently enjoying his reward) and are still silent.
- mercurial 10y ago
  > Still a Donald Trump in USA is far better and very less dangerous as compared to the tyrants like Mao or Stalin or Castro, because USA has many good checks and balances in place. How do you think Hoover stayed in place that long? You can pull a great many things without needing to disappear people at four in the morning. > The important point to note here is that the intellectuals (Snowden and his supporters) who are targeting USA both at national and international level were silent about the extremely intrusive surveillance and other atrocities inflicted by the tyrants like Putin (at whose place Snowden may be currently enjoying his reward) and are still silent. Snowden was not a public figure before. And you really think a life of exile in Russia is some kind of reward? That said, I think Snowden is against global surveillance in general, but: a) I can totally understand that you want to tread carefully in this kind of situation. You don't think he has already given up enough? What would you do in his situation? b) While Putin is certainly more willing to suppress political opponents, I doubt the Russian surveillance network is even remotely in the same league as the NSA c) Snowden is no doubt a lot more qualified to speak about Western surveillance than he is about Russian or Chinese efforts
  - tmptmp 10y ago