7 ms·

The idea of the commons is outside the realm of markets. It's like saying my local garbage man is a failure because he did nothing about the orbiting space garb

by ancap 10y ago

The idea of the commons is outside the realm of markets. It's like saying my local garbage man is a failure because he did nothing about the orbiting space garbage. Markets deal with private property and the fact that economists try to mix that with the idea of the commons tells us more about their shallow theories than it does markets. In my view, there should be no commons.

zardo 10y ago
>In my view, there should be no commons. I'm not sure how that could work without declaring someone god-emperor. Who would own the air, or the seas, or the sun?
- ancap 10y ago
  Whoever homesteaded them
  - zardo 10y ago
    You can't homestead an atmosphere.
    - ancap 10y ago
      Sure you could. Airplanes fly in the atmosphere all the time. Rockets put satellites into orbit.
Frondo 10y ago
"there should be no commons." Heh, I fully get that that's just one person's opinion on some internet site, but....when I was struck when I read that last line at how dismal a world it would be to live in, if we had to view literally all our engagement with the world through the lens of the transaction. Going for a walk? (Are there sidewalks anymore?) Have you negotiated with each individual sidewalk owner for right of passage? No? Well, then, use the street instead. Oh, forgot to renew your street use card? Guess you're stuck, unless your buddy lends you something to get to the private park nearby. Lucky thing you saved some extra breathable air coupons for the exertion you'll expend on the pickup basketball game. No commons, after all. I get it, the dude's handle is "ancap". Still, I'm pretty grateful that this is a pretty fringe view, especially when he lays it out so bare, "no commons."
- ancap 10y ago
  You're being facetious but I will address a few of your points regardless. >Going for a walk? (Are there sidewalks anymore?) Have you negotiated with each individual sidewalk owner for right of passage? If you like walking around your neighborhood, then you'd probably live in a neighborhood where you'd either have ownership rights or an easement to walk around a bit. If you like walking around at work, you'll probably want to work somewhere that has those opportunities available. Around businesses? Obviously every business can make their own rules about their property but I would guess most businesses would welcome people, potential customers, walking in front of their store. As for roads I will let the reader research that out; there's been plenty written on private roads. Private roads predate our current public road system so I'm not sure what's so unfathomable about them. >Lucky thing you saved some extra breathable air coupons Air is probably too abundant for people to want to try to commercialize. It would be a failing business. >I was struck when I read that last line at how dismal a world it would be to live in It's unfortunate that you lack the imagination. In the past several centuries we have seen a level of personal freedom which is unprecedented. With that increased freedom we have the highest standard of living, ever. Now when someone comes along and theorizes on how we might increase that freedom you seem to fear the possibility of change--like the slave afraid of what's beyond his plantation. Luckily, this isn't really written for you. There will be those who will read this and wonder "Could we really make private roads work?", they will do the research and come to their own conclusion. You may think this fringe, and it may be, but it does not take long for the fringe to grow.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    "It's unfortunate that you lack the imagination. In the past several centuries we have seen a level of personal freedom which is unprecedented. With that increased freedom we have the highest standard of living, ever. Now when someone comes along and theorizes on how we might increase that freedom you seem to fear the possibility of change--like the slave afraid of what's beyond his plantation." Except you're not theorizing on how to increase freedom. You're theorizing on how to carve people into separate little boxes. There is no freedom whatsoever there. Only servitude to the corporate masters who would control things.
st3v3r 10y ago
"The idea of the commons is outside the realm of markets" No, they aren't. They cannot be, otherwise the realm of markets is too limited to be of any worth. The commons are where we all live, breathe, work, and play. To say they don't matter is to completely ignore what it is to be human.
- ancap 10y ago
  >The commons are where we all live, breathe, work, and play. To say they don't matter is to completely ignore what it is to be human. I can't speak for your life but I spend the vast majority of my time on private property--including where I live, the air I breath, when I'm at work and when I play--not in any commons.
  - zardo 10y ago
    >the air I breath That's pretty interesting, do you purchase it or do you generate and store it yourself.
    - ancap 10y ago
      Neither. Even by today's property rights, the owner of a piece of land is granted x hundred feet of sky above their property, making the air breathed there privately owned.
      - zardo 10y ago
        I don't think it does that at all. You have rights to the space above your property, you have severe limitations on your right to modify the make up of the molecules that make up the air. Would private ownership provide some means to prevent poisoning that atmosphere? See: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=99f0bd4d8deafa1761d3ba07dc389075&mc=true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title40/40cfrv33_02.tpl#0 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=99f0bd4d8deafa1761d...
        ancap 10y ago

by ancap 10y ago

zardo 10y ago

>In my view, there should be no commons. I'm not sure how that could work without declaring someone god-emperor. Who would own the air, or the seas, or the sun?

ancap 10y ago
Whoever homesteaded them
- zardo 10y ago
  You can't homestead an atmosphere.
  - ancap 10y ago
    Sure you could. Airplanes fly in the atmosphere all the time. Rockets put satellites into orbit.

Frondo 10y ago

"there should be no commons." Heh, I fully get that that's just one person's opinion on some internet site, but....when I was struck when I read that last line at how dismal a world it would be to live in, if we had to view literally all our engagement with the world through the lens of the transaction. Going for a walk? (Are there sidewalks anymore?) Have you negotiated with each individual sidewalk owner for right of passage? No? Well, then, use the street instead. Oh, forgot to renew your street use card? Guess you're stuck, unless your buddy lends you something to get to the private park nearby. Lucky thing you saved some extra breathable air coupons for the exertion you'll expend on the pickup basketball game. No commons, after all. I get it, the dude's handle is "ancap". Still, I'm pretty grateful that this is a pretty fringe view, especially when he lays it out so bare, "no commons."

ancap 10y ago
You're being facetious but I will address a few of your points regardless. >Going for a walk? (Are there sidewalks anymore?) Have you negotiated with each individual sidewalk owner for right of passage? If you like walking around your neighborhood, then you'd probably live in a neighborhood where you'd either have ownership rights or an easement to walk around a bit. If you like walking around at work, you'll probably want to work somewhere that has those opportunities available. Around businesses? Obviously every business can make their own rules about their property but I would guess most businesses would welcome people, potential customers, walking in front of their store. As for roads I will let the reader research that out; there's been plenty written on private roads. Private roads predate our current public road system so I'm not sure what's so unfathomable about them. >Lucky thing you saved some extra breathable air coupons Air is probably too abundant for people to want to try to commercialize. It would be a failing business. >I was struck when I read that last line at how dismal a world it would be to live in It's unfortunate that you lack the imagination. In the past several centuries we have seen a level of personal freedom which is unprecedented. With that increased freedom we have the highest standard of living, ever. Now when someone comes along and theorizes on how we might increase that freedom you seem to fear the possibility of change--like the slave afraid of what's beyond his plantation. Luckily, this isn't really written for you. There will be those who will read this and wonder "Could we really make private roads work?", they will do the research and come to their own conclusion. You may think this fringe, and it may be, but it does not take long for the fringe to grow.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "It's unfortunate that you lack the imagination. In the past several centuries we have seen a level of personal freedom which is unprecedented. With that increased freedom we have the highest standard of living, ever. Now when someone comes along and theorizes on how we might increase that freedom you seem to fear the possibility of change--like the slave afraid of what's beyond his plantation." Except you're not theorizing on how to increase freedom. You're theorizing on how to carve people into separate little boxes. There is no freedom whatsoever there. Only servitude to the corporate masters who would control things.

st3v3r 10y ago

"The idea of the commons is outside the realm of markets" No, they aren't. They cannot be, otherwise the realm of markets is too limited to be of any worth. The commons are where we all live, breathe, work, and play. To say they don't matter is to completely ignore what it is to be human.

ancap 10y ago
>The commons are where we all live, breathe, work, and play. To say they don't matter is to completely ignore what it is to be human. I can't speak for your life but I spend the vast majority of my time on private property--including where I live, the air I breath, when I'm at work and when I play--not in any commons.
- zardo 10y ago
  >the air I breath That's pretty interesting, do you purchase it or do you generate and store it yourself.
  - ancap 10y ago
    Neither. Even by today's property rights, the owner of a piece of land is granted x hundred feet of sky above their property, making the air breathed there privately owned.
    - zardo 10y ago
      I don't think it does that at all. You have rights to the space above your property, you have severe limitations on your right to modify the make up of the molecules that make up the air. Would private ownership provide some means to prevent poisoning that atmosphere? See: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=99f0bd4d8deafa1761d3ba07dc389075&mc=true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title40/40cfrv33_02.tpl#0 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=99f0bd4d8deafa1761d...
      - ancap 10y ago