5 ms·

"it's Apple that needs China's market". I always hear this, but given the experience of most american companies in china, it seems little stretched.

jonknee 11y ago
Apple isn't most American companies.
- soperj 11y ago
  Yeah, most American companies don't collude to screw their workers.
  - kittiepryde 11y ago
    Are you sure?
  - philovivero 11y ago
    I'm with kittypryde. I'll take a cite on that. Last I heard, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Adobe, and a huge slew of smaller tech companies (if you want to stay in the same industry as Apple) had all colluded together to suppress wages. I have a hard time believing anyone who claims this was an exception to a rule. It seems far more likely to believe it is the rule.
    - soperj 11y ago
      Together with Apple. Who was the one forcing the issue?
  - draw_down 11y ago
    Hahahahahaha, yes they do.
    - eggy 11y ago
      I would say it happens, and collusion is not a good free market practice, and I disagree with it. Are the 'lower' salaries lower than related industries or worker tiers? Did the tech bubble generate over-average salaries, and now the big tech companies can't get tech workers to work for less? I worked at a law firm years ago, where they brought in some Russian programmers on visas for less money, but still the salary was better than what other workers in the same firm were making. The Russian workers also had a more disciplined software development background than the other American workers at the firm, were more productive and incited vicious, misplaced anti-Russian sentiment. I also remember when word processors were making a fortune in the 80s, but that quickly got watered down when more people learned MS Word and to touch type.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    Sure they do. They lobbied for things like H-1B visas that let them get cheap people with limited options for career movement. You get the benefit of on-shore workers under tighter control and suppression of wages. They colluded to influence labor standards over many years to declare broad swaths of overtime eligible employees as "exempt". Apple and those tech giants got caught doing more direct collusion and unethical behavior. That isn't an unknown or shocking revelation. Pretty sure the mall bagel place I worked in tossed resumes from several other eateries.
mcintyre1994 11y ago
Who else do they make a gold and red $20k+ watch for? More seriously, China is their 2nd biggest market and Tim Cook expects it to be their 1st. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-says-china-will-become-apples-biggest-market/#5f27caa07ba0 http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-s...
- maw 11y ago
  People with lots of money and little taste are, sadly, to be found all over the world.
L_Rahman 11y ago
For most American companies in China, this is true. For Apple it is not. From Ben Thompson at Stratechery: This is a very big deal. Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: There is tremendous income disparity There are a TON of people So while many Western markets may have a greater percentage of the population that can afford an iPhone, the absolute number of Chinese who are potential customers is very high as well.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  > Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: I've seen plenty of Chinese people whose actual individual monthly wage was almost certainly less than the price of an iPhone; it didn't stop them from having iPhones.
- mahranch 11y ago
  Sure, those are facts. But here's another fact: Just because you have a large population doesn't mean your economy is destined for greatness. It doesn't mean you're destined to overtake the U.S and it doesn't mean your destined to evolve, improve or exceed. All it means is that you have a lot of people living in your country (poor people). Will they become middle class? Maybe. But it's most definitely not "certain". The fact of the matter is that they do have a large population size and that presents its own problems for economic growth, believe it or not. Hell, it presents problems for the long-term stability of the country. Right now China's biggest threat is itself - corruption in China is a pervasive and massive problem (Source: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results). China isn't the only country with a massive population; India has one too. Ben Thompson's facts are also true about India.
  - netheril96 11y ago
    What does any of those have anything to do with whether Apple needs China or not? Apple does not care if China is not destined for greatness or to overtake the US or to solve the corruptness problem. They only care if the number of people willing and able to purchase their products does not decrease.

jonknee 11y ago

Apple isn't most American companies.

soperj 11y ago
Yeah, most American companies don't collude to screw their workers.
- kittiepryde 11y ago
  Are you sure?
- philovivero 11y ago
  I'm with kittypryde. I'll take a cite on that. Last I heard, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Adobe, and a huge slew of smaller tech companies (if you want to stay in the same industry as Apple) had all colluded together to suppress wages. I have a hard time believing anyone who claims this was an exception to a rule. It seems far more likely to believe it is the rule.
  - soperj 11y ago
    Together with Apple. Who was the one forcing the issue?
- draw_down 11y ago
  Hahahahahaha, yes they do.
  - eggy 11y ago
    I would say it happens, and collusion is not a good free market practice, and I disagree with it. Are the 'lower' salaries lower than related industries or worker tiers? Did the tech bubble generate over-average salaries, and now the big tech companies can't get tech workers to work for less? I worked at a law firm years ago, where they brought in some Russian programmers on visas for less money, but still the salary was better than what other workers in the same firm were making. The Russian workers also had a more disciplined software development background than the other American workers at the firm, were more productive and incited vicious, misplaced anti-Russian sentiment. I also remember when word processors were making a fortune in the 80s, but that quickly got watered down when more people learned MS Word and to touch type.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  Sure they do. They lobbied for things like H-1B visas that let them get cheap people with limited options for career movement. You get the benefit of on-shore workers under tighter control and suppression of wages. They colluded to influence labor standards over many years to declare broad swaths of overtime eligible employees as "exempt". Apple and those tech giants got caught doing more direct collusion and unethical behavior. That isn't an unknown or shocking revelation. Pretty sure the mall bagel place I worked in tossed resumes from several other eateries.

mcintyre1994 11y ago

Who else do they make a gold and red $20k+ watch for? More seriously, China is their 2nd biggest market and Tim Cook expects it to be their 1st. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-says-china-will-become-apples-biggest-market/#5f27caa07ba0 http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-s...

maw 11y ago
People with lots of money and little taste are, sadly, to be found all over the world.

L_Rahman 11y ago

For most American companies in China, this is true. For Apple it is not. From Ben Thompson at Stratechery: This is a very big deal. Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: There is tremendous income disparity There are a TON of people So while many Western markets may have a greater percentage of the population that can afford an iPhone, the absolute number of Chinese who are potential customers is very high as well.

thaumasiotes 11y ago
> Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: I've seen plenty of Chinese people whose actual individual monthly wage was almost certainly less than the price of an iPhone; it didn't stop them from having iPhones.
mahranch 11y ago
Sure, those are facts. But here's another fact: Just because you have a large population doesn't mean your economy is destined for greatness. It doesn't mean you're destined to overtake the U.S and it doesn't mean your destined to evolve, improve or exceed. All it means is that you have a lot of people living in your country (poor people). Will they become middle class? Maybe. But it's most definitely not "certain". The fact of the matter is that they do have a large population size and that presents its own problems for economic growth, believe it or not. Hell, it presents problems for the long-term stability of the country. Right now China's biggest threat is itself - corruption in China is a pervasive and massive problem (Source: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results). China isn't the only country with a massive population; India has one too. Ben Thompson's facts are also true about India.
- netheril96 11y ago
  What does any of those have anything to do with whether Apple needs China or not? Apple does not care if China is not destined for greatness or to overtake the US or to solve the corruptness problem. They only care if the number of people willing and able to purchase their products does not decrease.