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> the move towards atheism Care to explain that? Atheism may be growing--in fact, Wikipedia gives an upper bound of the US atheist population at ten percent[0]

> the move towards atheism Care to explain that? Atheism may be growing--in fact, Wikipedia gives an upper bound of the US atheist population at ten percent[0]--but I've never seen anything resembling what I would call an actual cultural movement towards atheism. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#United...

dean 10y ago
This also implies that atheists are more likely to commit suicide. Is there evidence to support that?
- Frozenlock 10y ago
  I don't know; I just listed major societal changes.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Yes, in fact. This statement as such is still just about correlation, not causation (compare ice cream sales and drowning deaths). But it has been studied. * CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention.* http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303 http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161...
  - padobson 10y ago
    It makes sense to me. A religious person in pain without hope looks at suicide as an option and thinks, "I've got it bad now, but it's only going to get worse if I do this..." Whereas a non-religious person is thinking, "I've got it bad now, but if I do this I won't have to feel anything ever again"
    - auntyJemima 10y ago
      Also because, suicide is forbidden in the majority of religious. God doesn't like it.
    - CaptSpify 10y ago
      Also: religions usually set up a system of support. You have a "club" of people you hang out with all the time, and it's not unusual to ask for help from the club if your having a hard time. It's also not unusual to get the help you asked for.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        Yes. Also, religions/churches often have pastors, imams, etc who act as therapists. Just having someone to talk to may help.
kaonashi 10y ago
I'll bite. The dominant non-commercial social organ for most people in their local community is their church. Atheists are by definition cut off from this. There are exceptions of course, Unitarian churches etc, but I would posit that most atheists don't find a comparable social grouping.
- jackmaney 10y ago
  So...how is this evidence for a social movement towards atheism? Honest question.
  - pm90 10y ago
    I don't think that is the question being answered by the parent. The question is (imo): why is atheism making people worse off?
    - jackmaney 10y ago
      > why is atheism making people worse off? Care to put forth any evidence that this might possibly be the case?
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  The dominant non-commercial social organ for religious people is their church. There are plenty of Christians that don't go to church.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  Growing up in a mid-sized town, there was a rule about starting your own small business: Join a church. Once you joined a church (it didn't really matter which one), you gained a lot of social connections that turned into business connections. I don't know if there was any statistical truth to that, but it was definitely accepted in my family's social circle as a rule.
nitrogen 10y ago
"None" is the fastest growing religious affiliation in the US. It's the movement without a "movement" -- no central organization required.
- jackmaney 10y ago
  There are plenty of people who don't affiliate with any religion but who are not, in fact, atheists. Not that it wouldn't surprise me if atheists, as a group, were growing.
  - __jal 10y ago
    ...And plenty of atheists who go to church. I know several, and occasionally darken the door of one myself.
    - andrepd 10y ago
      Why would an atheist do that?
      - DanBC 10y ago
        Social activity.
      - tomsthumb 10y ago
        Actually believing in god the way American Christians understand those words has not been a major part for many religious through history. Religious are about a lot more than just a bearded father figure in the sky.
      - __jal 10y ago
        Basically what Dan said. Community.
  - SudoNhim 10y ago
    How can you not affiliate with any god and not be an athiest? Surely (not athiest) => theist => (believes in a god) => (has a religion)
Frozenlock 10y ago
I honestly just assumed it was the case. I don't mind if anyone proves me wrong on this one. For the discussion I also didn't really make a distinction between a true atheist and someone who believes in a higher power but doesn't go to Church. I should probably have used "secularism".
xyience 10y ago
http://allendowney.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-retreat-from-religion-is.html http://allendowney.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-retreat-from-rel... This blogger has been covering the phenomenon among college freshmen since 2008. Notably the most recent results segregate none, atheist, and agnostic whereas before it was just 'none', but the effects are the same regardless of which label you want to associate with / avoid. Personally I think the actual cultural movement towards 'atheism' is simple Leftism. Most people may still believe in the belief of God and thus differ from atheists on the ontological question, but their beliefs about the world in general are vastly different from those of their (for some religions, even still living) ancestors of the same declared denomination and those beliefs are in conflict with classic doctrine.
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  I think so too. I think a lot of people in the US may believe in God but feel conflicted by the association with Christianity here. Certainly I would. Gay marriage is a really good example of something I support, but if I was in a church part of my tithe would probably go toward challenging it in court.
Futurebot 10y ago
Many equate "falling religiosity" (which is happening) with Atheism. It's overbroad use of terminology, but the trend is real. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/03/5-key-findings-about-religiosity-in-the-u-s-and-how-its-changing/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/03/5-key-findin... http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/ http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/

dean 10y ago

This also implies that atheists are more likely to commit suicide. Is there evidence to support that?

Frozenlock 10y ago
I don't know; I just listed major societal changes.
ptaipale 10y ago
Yes, in fact. This statement as such is still just about correlation, not causation (compare ice cream sales and drowning deaths). But it has been studied. * CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention.* http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303 http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161...
- padobson 10y ago
  It makes sense to me. A religious person in pain without hope looks at suicide as an option and thinks, "I've got it bad now, but it's only going to get worse if I do this..." Whereas a non-religious person is thinking, "I've got it bad now, but if I do this I won't have to feel anything ever again"
  - auntyJemima 10y ago
    Also because, suicide is forbidden in the majority of religious. God doesn't like it.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    Also: religions usually set up a system of support. You have a "club" of people you hang out with all the time, and it's not unusual to ask for help from the club if your having a hard time. It's also not unusual to get the help you asked for.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Yes. Also, religions/churches often have pastors, imams, etc who act as therapists. Just having someone to talk to may help.

kaonashi 10y ago

I'll bite. The dominant non-commercial social organ for most people in their local community is their church. Atheists are by definition cut off from this. There are exceptions of course, Unitarian churches etc, but I would posit that most atheists don't find a comparable social grouping.

jackmaney 10y ago
So...how is this evidence for a social movement towards atheism? Honest question.
- pm90 10y ago
  I don't think that is the question being answered by the parent. The question is (imo): why is atheism making people worse off?
  - jackmaney 10y ago
    > why is atheism making people worse off? Care to put forth any evidence that this might possibly be the case?
vinceguidry 10y ago
The dominant non-commercial social organ for religious people is their church. There are plenty of Christians that don't go to church.
CaptSpify 10y ago
Growing up in a mid-sized town, there was a rule about starting your own small business: Join a church. Once you joined a church (it didn't really matter which one), you gained a lot of social connections that turned into business connections. I don't know if there was any statistical truth to that, but it was definitely accepted in my family's social circle as a rule.

nitrogen 10y ago

"None" is the fastest growing religious affiliation in the US. It's the movement without a "movement" -- no central organization required.

jackmaney 10y ago
There are plenty of people who don't affiliate with any religion but who are not, in fact, atheists. Not that it wouldn't surprise me if atheists, as a group, were growing.
- __jal 10y ago
  ...And plenty of atheists who go to church. I know several, and occasionally darken the door of one myself.
  - andrepd 10y ago
    Why would an atheist do that?
    - DanBC 10y ago
      Social activity.
    - tomsthumb 10y ago
      Actually believing in god the way American Christians understand those words has not been a major part for many religious through history. Religious are about a lot more than just a bearded father figure in the sky.
    - __jal 10y ago
      Basically what Dan said. Community.
- SudoNhim 10y ago
  How can you not affiliate with any god and not be an athiest? Surely (not athiest) => theist => (believes in a god) => (has a religion)

Frozenlock 10y ago

I honestly just assumed it was the case. I don't mind if anyone proves me wrong on this one. For the discussion I also didn't really make a distinction between a true atheist and someone who believes in a higher power but doesn't go to Church. I should probably have used "secularism".

xyience 10y ago

http://allendowney.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-retreat-from-religion-is.html http://allendowney.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-retreat-from-rel... This blogger has been covering the phenomenon among college freshmen since 2008. Notably the most recent results segregate none, atheist, and agnostic whereas before it was just 'none', but the effects are the same regardless of which label you want to associate with / avoid. Personally I think the actual cultural movement towards 'atheism' is simple Leftism. Most people may still believe in the belief of God and thus differ from atheists on the ontological question, but their beliefs about the world in general are vastly different from those of their (for some religions, even still living) ancestors of the same declared denomination and those beliefs are in conflict with classic doctrine.

jschwartzi 10y ago
I think so too. I think a lot of people in the US may believe in God but feel conflicted by the association with Christianity here. Certainly I would. Gay marriage is a really good example of something I support, but if I was in a church part of my tithe would probably go toward challenging it in court.

Futurebot 10y ago

Many equate "falling religiosity" (which is happening) with Atheism. It's overbroad use of terminology, but the trend is real. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/03/5-key-findings-about-religiosity-in-the-u-s-and-how-its-changing/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/03/5-key-findin... http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/ http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/