9 ms·

I think you've got it backwards, it's Apple that needs China's market and China basicallly has them over a barrel on these secondary products. What China has t

by Steko 11y ago

I think you've got it backwards, it's Apple that needs China's market and China basicallly has them over a barrel on these secondary products. What China has to be careful of is eventually the US/EU decide to get tough on Chinese protectionism and impose significant barriers to goods manufactured in China. And that would also be bad for Apple again since they make their stuff in China.

DannyBee 11y ago
"it's Apple that needs China's market". I always hear this, but given the experience of most american companies in china, it seems little stretched.
- jonknee 11y ago
  Apple isn't most American companies.
  - soperj 11y ago
    Yeah, most American companies don't collude to screw their workers.
    - kittiepryde 11y ago
      Are you sure?
    - philovivero 11y ago
      I'm with kittypryde. I'll take a cite on that. Last I heard, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Adobe, and a huge slew of smaller tech companies (if you want to stay in the same industry as Apple) had all colluded together to suppress wages. I have a hard time believing anyone who claims this was an exception to a rule. It seems far more likely to believe it is the rule.
      - soperj 11y ago
        Together with Apple. Who was the one forcing the issue?
    - draw_down 11y ago
      Hahahahahaha, yes they do.
      - eggy 11y ago
        I would say it happens, and collusion is not a good free market practice, and I disagree with it. Are the 'lower' salaries lower than related industries or worker tiers? Did the tech bubble generate over-average salaries, and now the big tech companies can't get tech workers to work for less? I worked at a law firm years ago, where they brought in some Russian programmers on visas for less money, but still the salary was better than what other workers in the same firm were making. The Russian workers also had a more disciplined software development background than the other American workers at the firm, were more productive and incited vicious, misplaced anti-Russian sentiment. I also remember when word processors were making a fortune in the 80s, but that quickly got watered down when more people learned MS Word and to touch type.
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      Sure they do. They lobbied for things like H-1B visas that let them get cheap people with limited options for career movement. You get the benefit of on-shore workers under tighter control and suppression of wages. They colluded to influence labor standards over many years to declare broad swaths of overtime eligible employees as "exempt". Apple and those tech giants got caught doing more direct collusion and unethical behavior. That isn't an unknown or shocking revelation. Pretty sure the mall bagel place I worked in tossed resumes from several other eateries.
- mcintyre1994 11y ago
  Who else do they make a gold and red $20k+ watch for? More seriously, China is their 2nd biggest market and Tim Cook expects it to be their 1st. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-says-china-will-become-apples-biggest-market/#5f27caa07ba0 http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-s...
  - maw 11y ago
    People with lots of money and little taste are, sadly, to be found all over the world.
- L_Rahman 11y ago
  For most American companies in China, this is true. For Apple it is not. From Ben Thompson at Stratechery: This is a very big deal. Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: There is tremendous income disparity There are a TON of people So while many Western markets may have a greater percentage of the population that can afford an iPhone, the absolute number of Chinese who are potential customers is very high as well.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    > Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: I've seen plenty of Chinese people whose actual individual monthly wage was almost certainly less than the price of an iPhone; it didn't stop them from having iPhones.
  - mahranch 11y ago
    Sure, those are facts. But here's another fact: Just because you have a large population doesn't mean your economy is destined for greatness. It doesn't mean you're destined to overtake the U.S and it doesn't mean your destined to evolve, improve or exceed. All it means is that you have a lot of people living in your country (poor people). Will they become middle class? Maybe. But it's most definitely not "certain". The fact of the matter is that they do have a large population size and that presents its own problems for economic growth, believe it or not. Hell, it presents problems for the long-term stability of the country. Right now China's biggest threat is itself - corruption in China is a pervasive and massive problem (Source: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results). China isn't the only country with a massive population; India has one too. Ben Thompson's facts are also true about India.
    - netheril96 11y ago
      What does any of those have anything to do with whether Apple needs China or not? Apple does not care if China is not destined for greatness or to overtake the US or to solve the corruptness problem. They only care if the number of people willing and able to purchase their products does not decrease.
3nki 11y ago
If China keeps giving western tech companies a hard time they might stop making their stuff in China. That would hurt the Chinese economy far more than they gain by local companies taking a little business from Apple and such.
- Steko 11y ago
  That would have worked 15 years ago but again Apple needs access to China's market so they can't just unilaterally pull out their manufacturing.
  - ryanhuff 11y ago
    Apple and others would be smart to diversify their manufacturing capabilities to other countries.
tn13 11y ago
I think you are ignoring the precedent effect. If China indeed does something nasty with Apple it is not Apple that is going to leave China but almost every vendor out there might start doing risk analysis. India's pro-market government is already trying to woo American manufacturers (but don't seem to succeeding yet). Not to mention the governments of USA/EU etc. might do the same to Chinese companies.
- Steko 11y ago
  This isn't anything new. China kicked Google out 6 years ago. > India's pro-market government Is still behind China in many respects when it comes to pro-marketness. > Not to mention the governments of USA/EU etc. might do the same to Chinese companies. No I mentioned this explicitly.

by Steko 11y ago

DannyBee 11y ago

"it's Apple that needs China's market". I always hear this, but given the experience of most american companies in china, it seems little stretched.

jonknee 11y ago
Apple isn't most American companies.
- soperj 11y ago
  Yeah, most American companies don't collude to screw their workers.
  - kittiepryde 11y ago
    Are you sure?
  - philovivero 11y ago
    I'm with kittypryde. I'll take a cite on that. Last I heard, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Adobe, and a huge slew of smaller tech companies (if you want to stay in the same industry as Apple) had all colluded together to suppress wages. I have a hard time believing anyone who claims this was an exception to a rule. It seems far more likely to believe it is the rule.
    - soperj 11y ago
      Together with Apple. Who was the one forcing the issue?
  - draw_down 11y ago
    Hahahahahaha, yes they do.
    - eggy 11y ago
      I would say it happens, and collusion is not a good free market practice, and I disagree with it. Are the 'lower' salaries lower than related industries or worker tiers? Did the tech bubble generate over-average salaries, and now the big tech companies can't get tech workers to work for less? I worked at a law firm years ago, where they brought in some Russian programmers on visas for less money, but still the salary was better than what other workers in the same firm were making. The Russian workers also had a more disciplined software development background than the other American workers at the firm, were more productive and incited vicious, misplaced anti-Russian sentiment. I also remember when word processors were making a fortune in the 80s, but that quickly got watered down when more people learned MS Word and to touch type.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    Sure they do. They lobbied for things like H-1B visas that let them get cheap people with limited options for career movement. You get the benefit of on-shore workers under tighter control and suppression of wages. They colluded to influence labor standards over many years to declare broad swaths of overtime eligible employees as "exempt". Apple and those tech giants got caught doing more direct collusion and unethical behavior. That isn't an unknown or shocking revelation. Pretty sure the mall bagel place I worked in tossed resumes from several other eateries.
mcintyre1994 11y ago
Who else do they make a gold and red $20k+ watch for? More seriously, China is their 2nd biggest market and Tim Cook expects it to be their 1st. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-says-china-will-become-apples-biggest-market/#5f27caa07ba0 http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/01/11/tim-cook-s...
- maw 11y ago
  People with lots of money and little taste are, sadly, to be found all over the world.
L_Rahman 11y ago
For most American companies in China, this is true. For Apple it is not. From Ben Thompson at Stratechery: This is a very big deal. Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: There is tremendous income disparity There are a TON of people So while many Western markets may have a greater percentage of the population that can afford an iPhone, the absolute number of Chinese who are potential customers is very high as well.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  > Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: I've seen plenty of Chinese people whose actual individual monthly wage was almost certainly less than the price of an iPhone; it didn't stop them from having iPhones.
- mahranch 11y ago
  Sure, those are facts. But here's another fact: Just because you have a large population doesn't mean your economy is destined for greatness. It doesn't mean you're destined to overtake the U.S and it doesn't mean your destined to evolve, improve or exceed. All it means is that you have a lot of people living in your country (poor people). Will they become middle class? Maybe. But it's most definitely not "certain". The fact of the matter is that they do have a large population size and that presents its own problems for economic growth, believe it or not. Hell, it presents problems for the long-term stability of the country. Right now China's biggest threat is itself - corruption in China is a pervasive and massive problem (Source: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results). China isn't the only country with a massive population; India has one too. Ben Thompson's facts are also true about India.
  - netheril96 11y ago
    What does any of those have anything to do with whether Apple needs China or not? Apple does not care if China is not destined for greatness or to overtake the US or to solve the corruptness problem. They only care if the number of people willing and able to purchase their products does not decrease.

3nki 11y ago

If China keeps giving western tech companies a hard time they might stop making their stuff in China. That would hurt the Chinese economy far more than they gain by local companies taking a little business from Apple and such.

Steko 11y ago
That would have worked 15 years ago but again Apple needs access to China's market so they can't just unilaterally pull out their manufacturing.
- ryanhuff 11y ago
  Apple and others would be smart to diversify their manufacturing capabilities to other countries.

tn13 11y ago

I think you are ignoring the precedent effect. If China indeed does something nasty with Apple it is not Apple that is going to leave China but almost every vendor out there might start doing risk analysis. India's pro-market government is already trying to woo American manufacturers (but don't seem to succeeding yet). Not to mention the governments of USA/EU etc. might do the same to Chinese companies.

Steko 11y ago
This isn't anything new. China kicked Google out 6 years ago. > India's pro-market government Is still behind China in many respects when it comes to pro-marketness. > Not to mention the governments of USA/EU etc. might do the same to Chinese companies. No I mentioned this explicitly.