17 ms·
Partner is an architect in SF (works on 2nd St.) She's currently dealing with two overlapping regulations, one from the state, the other from the city: (1) All
by eldavido 11y ago
Partner is an architect in SF (works on 2nd St.)
She's currently dealing with two overlapping regulations, one from the state, the other from the city:
(1) All electrical outlets must be placed less than 18 inches from the edge of a countertop, to make them accessible to people in wheelchairs
(2) A countertop must have an outlet every 18 inches, or less.
They're getting held up in permitting because there is a no constructible L-shaped countertop that satisfies both of these constraints. The best part, nobody on either side seems to care much, they're "just doing their job"...and housing isn't getting built.
I'm not sure what to make of this, other than that it's the newest brilliant "innovation" from the place that banned happy meal toys, and outlawed plastic bags.
- Analemma_ 11y agoSurely state regulations supersede local ones if there's a direct conflict, or they would if the city every complained and the matter were ever brought in front of a judge?
- eldavido 11y agoLocal government doesn't give a damn; they're perfectly content to refuse permit issuance if you don't comply with their regulations. In theory you're correct, but, courts aren't known for their speed. EDIT: IANAL but I think the issue here is more complex, because the regulations don't "conflict", they create a situation where a bad outcome occurs only because both of them are in place. Does anyone know if there are other "emergent phenomenon" effects in law and how they're handled?
- Guvante 11y agoThe rules don't even conflict that way, there are legitimate ways to satisfy both requirements. All of them just have side effects that aren't desirable. Thus there is no way to challenge the lower law as superseding as it doesn't technically. It instead supersedes most reasonable designs.
- mikeash 11y agoStrictly speaking it's not a conflict, since you can obey both laws by simply not building at all.
- bmelton 11y agoSo long as the city is the one issuing the permit that allows you to build, then arguments about who the relevant authority is aren't really germane. The authority is whomever can grant you the permit, even if it puts you afoul of a different law.
- nkrisc 11y agoWhat if they just leave a large square-shaped hole in the elbow of the countertop?
- revelation 11y ago... why is there regulation for how many electrical outlets you have in the first place?
- JohnTHaller 11y agoTo alleviate the need for extension cords which are a big cause of fires. That said, 18" is absurd.
- sliverstorm 11y agoAnd outlet multipliers, which are good at putting more load than planned on the circuit.
- douche 11y agoDo they even let you put the old-style non-fused/breakered outlets in anymore?
- mvd366 11y agoAll countertop (small appliance) outlets are required to have GFCI protection and most places necessitate two separate 20A circuits for the space.
- devicenull 11y agoUS outlets don't have any sort of fuse/breaker built in.
- unethical_ban 11y agoSome are GCFI which can detect abnormal current.
- mindslight 11y agoGFCI, AFCI, and overcurrent protection are all orthogonal protections. US receptacles do not have overcurrent protection built in.
- tobz 11y agoPut up drywall against the corner so it pushes the corner of the drywall closer to the corner edge of the countertop? An octagonal sort of shape. Then you can cut it off like a foot up or something and it can be a place to put a flower vase. :)
- jessaustin 11y agoCould the outlets be installed just below the countertop, in the face of the cabinet? Yes that would be ugly as hell, but most accommodations for the handicapped are.
- eldavido 11y agoI think this is what they're planning to do. But it's for a multi-unit building with dozens of places, so this adds a lot of cost because now, rather than using off-the-shelf components ("casework" to use the industry term), they have to hire a woordworker to go in and manually modify each one, at probably 80-100/hr. Not great.
- jsprogrammer 11y agoIs this the first time such a counter-top has been made? Surely someone must have run into this problem before. How could there be no standard component that meets regulations, which have presumably existed for awhile?
- vonmoltke 11y agoI don't know of any other place that has this "outlets within X inches of counter edge" requirement, or really any accessibility requirement imposed in a blanket fashion on residential construction. Since that means most accessibility builds and mods are custom by nature, there is no market for standard components for most things. Tubs and showers are the main thing I can think of off the top of my head.
- vidarh 11y agoThere are plenty of narrower countertops, and plenty of kitchen systems with e.g. suitable corner cabinets that would make the countertop narrow enough in the corner to fit the requirements. This is only a problem because they have chosen or want a solution that have painted them into a corner without thinking about the requirements. The requirements may not be entirely well thought through, but complying with those two is not difficult.
- 11y ago
- mturmon 11y agoI'd say this is more of a city planning office problem than a "paternalistic California" problem. The plastic bag ban caused much gnashing of teeth, but it was a basic instance of market failure (nobody pays for the externalities of bag pollution), and people have adapted fine since the ban took effect. You see the kind of standards worship that you described in the LA city planning office as well as SF. There will be swearing up and down that this requirement is in place for a solid reason, and then in 5 years the requirement disappears. Runoff from buildings is my favorite example: a few years ago, you had to ensure rainwater runoff from new structures was conveyed to the street. By pumping it uphill if necessary. You signed a document promising to maintain the pump in perpetuity. (Reason: your runoff could damage nearby properties.) Now, you can't pump runoff to the street, you have to sequester some on-site. (Reason: drought, plus, city can't treat all that water itself.) Another instance of this is installation of crosswalks. One year, the city refuses to put in new crosswalks because "it will encourage unsafe crossings". Next year, city is putting in new crosswalks all over because it will encourage pedestrian activity, make citizens healthier, etc.
- jacobush 11y agoAll of which are true.
- swombat 11y agoIt's almost as if the "city council" or "government" is an entity composed of multiple people who are human and have conflicting agendas, visions, opinions, dreams, etc (sometimes within a single person) and so end up acting in a way that reflects their contradictions and human biases...
- bmelton 11y agoSure, and that's a fair point, but perhaps those humans shouldn't have the authority to impose their whimsies on the entirety of their neighbors because they think it's a good idea.
- dragontamer 11y ago
- malisper 11y agoI'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding why the constraints are contradictory. For example, can't you just have a thin countertop such that the corner is within 18 inches of the edge and put an outlet there?
- zo1 11y agoThey're not contradictory; they simply can't find a "ready-made" version of counter-top that satisfies both requirements at the same time.
- eldavido 11y agoIt's also ugly. Keep in mind that architecture is as much about how it looks, as how functional it is.
- vonmoltke 11y agoWell, yeah, but you have now just made the counter unusably thin.
- vidarh 11y agoMost of my countertop is much narrower than 18" because of cabinets going down to the surface. This is only a problem because they don't want to put something in place that breaks up the L-shape, such as a cabinet.
- alistairSH 11y agoAs noted above, corners are utilized for storing large items that don't otherwise fit comfortably on the counter. In my own kitchen, the corner is used to store a mid-size toaster over. There is still plenty of room in front of the oven to butter toast or other smaller cooking tasks. Take away the corner and my toaster is now moved to a straight piece of counter, where is takes all of the depth when open, and with no room in front to butter my toast. This is a simple case of putting the needs of the few ahead of the many. I'm all for accessible public spaces, but why should my home be required to be built in such a way that it is less useful to me?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- vidarh 11y agoJust put a cabinet that goes down to the counter in the corner. What the above really means is that they don't like the solutions that will satisfy the constraints.
- tjsnyder 11y agoThe plastic bag ban was one of a handful of regulations that made a HUGE difference to the health of the bay's ecosystem. Paper will at least disintegrate over time in the bay's water. Plastic does not. You should really look at the effect and reasoning of some of these regulations rather than handwaving them away as 'bad government regulation'
- Crito 11y ago> "Paper will at least disintegrate over time in the bay's water." Paper bags also have a tendency to disintegrated when I am carrying them home. Because of this, I am now more inclined to drive my car to the grocery store, so that I can place the bags in the trunk.
- imaginenore 11y agoWe have biodegradable "plastic" bags here. Not sure if it's actual plastic, but apparently it's not toxic to animals. Paper bags suck. And they are made of trees.
- rietta 11y agoAn outlet every 18 inches seems like a lot! A standard double sink is about 32 inches wide. What on earth is the motivation?
- zyxley 11y agoI'm trying to think who on Earth would even have that many things to plug in on a kitchen counter. Microwave, toaster, toaster oven, rice cooker, griddle, blender, George Foreman grill, coffee maker... you'd run out of counter space well before you run out of outlets with that scheme.
- omegaham 11y agoI have relatively few outlets, (House was built in 1968) and I don't see the point either - you keep everything unplugged until you have to use it. I typically keep the rice cooker, crockpot, and all of the other "occasional use" appliances in the cupboard anyway. The only appliances that I actually have in a fixed spot are the microwave, toaster, and blender. Three outlets in three different spots, no problem.
- rietta 11y agoThat's what I am thinking while looking at my seemingly cramped kitchen with by comparison massive 24 inch deep countertops with only 4 outlets (5 if you count the one hidden behind the refrigerator). Much more than 18 inches apart. It boggles my mind to have that many outlets.
- extrapickles 11y agoThe motivation is keeping people from being dangerously cheap. Quite a few kitchen appliances draw 12A for long periods of time, and people love to get cheap extension cords and outlet strips that cannot handle that amount of load. These same people will plug multiple high power loads into the extension cord, making the cord get dangerously hot before the breaker trips.
- rietta 11y ago
- DanBC 11y agoDo you have links to the two conflicting standards please? Or names so I can web search them?
- tomsaffell 11y agoSeconded. Without a source to verify these claims, it seems that a huge amount of this discussion is based on hearsay. I can tell you that the SF Electrical code (which I presume he is referring to) is available here: http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/sfbuilding/electricalcode2013edition?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca$anc=JD_Electrical http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/sfbuil... It's written as a series of amendments to the CA Electrical code, which is here: http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages/free-access?mode=view http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information... See Section 210.52 for kitchen requirements. AFAICT, there is no requirement that outlets be 18" apart - more like 48". Good luck finding the code sections that he's referring to though - there's a lot of text in there, and it's not easy to search..
- eldavido 11y agoThe exact dimensions are based on my memory of a conversation. I actually tried to look up the real thing, but like, you I failed. Even so, just wanted to go on record as saying I'm not sure the exact dimensions I quoted were correct. But I don't think that's the point. It's just an interesting illustration of how emergent complexity can creep up without anyone intending it. And I sure didn't mean to spark a huge discussion with dozens of comments, I'm pretty surprised by how far this thing has gone!!
- tomsaffell 11y ago>I'm pretty surprised by how far this thing has gone!! Haha - so do we now have two examples of emergent complexity? FYI, it's not that the complexity / length of the code caused me to fail per se - I've actually used that section of the code to design a kitchen - it's not user friendly, but it does ultimately work in that I could use it to find and follow all the rules applicable to my design. But I did fail to find a reference to the '18 inch rule' that you stated, but that's because that would require me to read the entire code, for which I don't have time (you need the entire thing because it has a nasty habit of having the rules spread out over multiple sections, probably in the interest of abstraction / generalization. ADA may well be an example of that) One other thought: since the SF rules are written directly in relation to the CA rules, it's not like they are two competing standards. One if just a layer on top of the other. Of course, that could still create a contradiction, but in the one case where I saw that, the DBI found a way around it.
- mtanski 11y agoBe glad you're not dealing with the DOB in NY, esp in Brooklyn. The code is so thick that's it's impossible to not violate it in some way... worse yet the decisioning of the employees that approve them are arbitrary. Friend of mine were forced alter the plans to include sprinklers in the build even for a single family without a CO change. This was before this was a requirement for all new single family. They just decided that you must do it. They even got a FDNY waiver, DOB didn't care. So they had to add it to the plan (at about 40k install) just to move the process along.
- bazzargh 11y agoWhat are those two regulations? The California Electrical Code 2010 has that no point on the wall space behind a countertop can be more than 600mm (24in) away from an outlet, which actually means an outlet every 4 feet (2 feet space are allowed either side) (Article 210.52). I don't see 18 in in there. There's a good diagram of the regulations here: http://buildingincalifornia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ResKitchenReceptacles.pdf http://buildingincalifornia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/R... ... but there's similar drawings explaining this in the code itself. I'm not doubting that there's weird inconsistencies in the rules, but the 18in thing struck me as weird from my own experience of remodelling my house recently, so I looked up the CA code. Apparently SF are still fighting Carl Malamud to stop him putting their building code online. https://archive.org/stream/gov.ca.sf.electrical/ca_sf_electrical_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/gov.ca.sf.electrical/ca_sf_electr... (edited to fix 300mm to 600mm. I know 600mm isn't quite 24in but that's what the code says)
- mindslight 11y agoI agree, that sounds fishy. Maybe it's just an oversimplification of some pathological case, but I don't see how. The SF law on its own (as stated) would seem to preclude any counter deeper than 18", and then a receptacle in line with each edge should satisfy the NEC. Carl Malamud is a saint. It's preposterous that people are expected to be bound by laws they cannot even access. But this obviously only affects the DIYers - commercial electricians benefit from the unjust barriers.
- aaronbrethorst 11y agoSeattle instituted a limited plastic bag ban four years ago. It hasn't been a crisis: http://www.seattle.gov/util/MyServices/Recycling/ReduceReuse/PlasticBagBan/ http://www.seattle.gov/util/MyServices/Recycling/ReduceReuse...
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- stuaxo 11y agoIn the UK we didn't ban plastic bags - but introduced a small charge, there do seem to be way less of them blowing around in the wind.