6 ms·

When I see the factory videos of the production of the BMW i3, or that interview with the Monroe guy whose company took apart and analysed the i3... It seems to

by Luc 11y ago

When I see the factory videos of the production of the BMW i3, or that interview with the Monroe guy whose company took apart and analysed the i3... It seems to me BMW is well ahead of Tesla in many ways.

wil421 11y ago
For BMW and others, they should have the advantage. They already have R&D, factories, distribution, and the workers in place. Tesla is having to build up everything from scratch including a battery factory.
- thrownaway2424 11y ago
  The battery factory is owned and operated by Panasonic. Tesla itself operates out of the former Toyota/NUMMI factory in Fremont and has re-hired a substantial number of skilled autoworkers in the area.
  - beachstartup 11y ago
    yes, parent comment is typical carguy fanboyism translated into 21st century context. my favorite carbrand is special and unique, because of X reasons! a new company producing cars isn't doing much "from scratch", other than design, and the basic concepts there are also pretty well established. as far as i can tell tesla is producing the same basic product as everyone else except all the tech people are into it because of elon musk, where they probably hated or didn't pay attention to cars before.
    - fleitz 11y ago
      I'm a car guy, the type that loves manual transmissions, etc. My 'brand' is Toyota/BMW. I scoffed at electric cars as being even worse than an automatic, all that changed when I stepped into a Tesla. I agree that Tesla's are an economic substitute for Toyotas but when you step into a Model S as a car guy you know it's different. There's only two reasons I didn't buy it 1) I love road trips and there's one supercharger station in my province, and more importantly 2) I couldn't afford it. Tesla's are like BMWs you know they aren't that reliable, are really expensive, but there's nothing like driving one. Like BMW, it's a smiles per gallon car you buy it because when you step on it, it goes, not because it gets great gas milage.
      - beachstartup 11y ago
        so it's too expensive, and isn't practical, yet you pine and lust for one. it's also really really fast, and looks super duper cool and it's somehow better than the others. does any of this sound familiar? in other words, same basic product as any high end fast car. this is coming from someone who has a high end fast car, is a car guy, has a 'brand', and has ridden in all the high end fast cars. they're all basically the same. musk is a car guy and lives in LA (bel air), car capital of the known universe. he's a genius for recognizing this market angle.
        foobarrio 11y ago
        Isn't that exactly the point that Tesla made electric cars desirable (not practical)? Not sure that can be easily dismissed. They took a class of car that usually seen as weak and put into the same class as Porsche. That is no small feat IMHO.
  - SpaceX_Tech 11y ago
    I suspect the person you replied to was talking about the new Gigafactory that is being built, which I believe will be primarily owned and operated by Tesla, although Panasonic is an investor. Tesla does source its current batteries from Panasonic though.
stcredzero 11y ago
BMW and GM both have superior car designers, in my estimation. The problem is, management isn't telling them to design quite the right things.
rsync 11y ago
"When I see the factory videos of the production of the BMW i3" Right - the i3, which is the only electric car BMW makes, and is shaped like a prototypical, onion-parody of an electric car.[1] Here's a prediction: Another 5 years, on top of the prior 5 years, of car-show prototypes and concept cars, with cutesy sub-brand "i" and "e" monikers, and nothing to buy but hybrid cars with little chainsaw engines inside of them. [1] ... although, I will say that the interior of the i3 is very progressive and well done. Very impressive.
- SpaceX_Tech 11y ago
  This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I absolutely love the look of the i3 and don't understand the widespread derision it receives. I'm a big fan of industrial design/architecture/automotive design and try to study it extensively, albeit at the hobbyist level. My all time favorite cars are probably the 1973 Porsche 2.7RS and the 1960 Aston Martin DB4GT Jet by Bertone. I only say this as proof that I usually have what most would consider fairly good taste in cars and yet the i3 might be one of my favorite sub $100k cars released in the last few years. I admit that it tends to photographic poorly and BMW has a habit of painting them some very unflattering colors, including some really weird two tone colorways. The first time I saw the i3 in person it was painted a "unique" burnt orange/copper color and I thought it was hideous. Then when I finally saw one in person painted dark grey with nicer wheels my opinion completely changed. I also really like its size. I work right next door to Tesla's design studio here in Hawthorne and I can barely cross the street without seeing a model S. While I like the overall body shape there are a number of things that I strongly dislike such as the chrome accents around the windows and much of the front fascia, not to mention the large size. The i3 seems much more forward thinking to me from a design perspective. I’ve never actually sat in or driven one though. I’m curious if you or others wouldn’t mind sharing what you dislike about the i3, hopefully I haven’t completely lost my sense of style.
  - rsync 11y ago
    "I’m curious if you or others wouldn’t mind sharing what you dislike about the i3, hopefully I haven’t completely lost my sense of style." I live in the SFBA and therefore see a lot of these in person. It's not that, by itself, it's a bad design - it's that it follows in a long, almost comical line of "things that look like electric cars" - sort of like the Mercedes B class. As I say, if you were mocking up a typical electric car for the onion, you'd come up with basically that. The model S has, in my opinion, a LOT of design shortcomings, but what is notable about it is that it's just a car. It's not a future car or a weird car or a thing that looks like an electric car - it's just a normal car-looking-thing.
vidoc 11y ago
Agreed, except maybe for PR, as nowadays it seems like Elon Musks is the new Steve Jobs in the mind of a lot people of the "Tech Community" or other incompetent "Tech Journalists" (sorry for the pleonasm).

by Luc 11y ago

wil421 11y ago

For BMW and others, they should have the advantage. They already have R&D, factories, distribution, and the workers in place. Tesla is having to build up everything from scratch including a battery factory.

thrownaway2424 11y ago
The battery factory is owned and operated by Panasonic. Tesla itself operates out of the former Toyota/NUMMI factory in Fremont and has re-hired a substantial number of skilled autoworkers in the area.
- beachstartup 11y ago
  yes, parent comment is typical carguy fanboyism translated into 21st century context. my favorite carbrand is special and unique, because of X reasons! a new company producing cars isn't doing much "from scratch", other than design, and the basic concepts there are also pretty well established. as far as i can tell tesla is producing the same basic product as everyone else except all the tech people are into it because of elon musk, where they probably hated or didn't pay attention to cars before.
  - fleitz 11y ago
    I'm a car guy, the type that loves manual transmissions, etc. My 'brand' is Toyota/BMW. I scoffed at electric cars as being even worse than an automatic, all that changed when I stepped into a Tesla. I agree that Tesla's are an economic substitute for Toyotas but when you step into a Model S as a car guy you know it's different. There's only two reasons I didn't buy it 1) I love road trips and there's one supercharger station in my province, and more importantly 2) I couldn't afford it. Tesla's are like BMWs you know they aren't that reliable, are really expensive, but there's nothing like driving one. Like BMW, it's a smiles per gallon car you buy it because when you step on it, it goes, not because it gets great gas milage.
    - beachstartup 11y ago
      so it's too expensive, and isn't practical, yet you pine and lust for one. it's also really really fast, and looks super duper cool and it's somehow better than the others. does any of this sound familiar? in other words, same basic product as any high end fast car. this is coming from someone who has a high end fast car, is a car guy, has a 'brand', and has ridden in all the high end fast cars. they're all basically the same. musk is a car guy and lives in LA (bel air), car capital of the known universe. he's a genius for recognizing this market angle.
      - foobarrio 11y ago
        Isn't that exactly the point that Tesla made electric cars desirable (not practical)? Not sure that can be easily dismissed. They took a class of car that usually seen as weak and put into the same class as Porsche. That is no small feat IMHO.
- SpaceX_Tech 11y ago
  I suspect the person you replied to was talking about the new Gigafactory that is being built, which I believe will be primarily owned and operated by Tesla, although Panasonic is an investor. Tesla does source its current batteries from Panasonic though.

stcredzero 11y ago

BMW and GM both have superior car designers, in my estimation. The problem is, management isn't telling them to design quite the right things.

rsync 11y ago

"When I see the factory videos of the production of the BMW i3" Right - the i3, which is the only electric car BMW makes, and is shaped like a prototypical, onion-parody of an electric car.[1] Here's a prediction: Another 5 years, on top of the prior 5 years, of car-show prototypes and concept cars, with cutesy sub-brand "i" and "e" monikers, and nothing to buy but hybrid cars with little chainsaw engines inside of them. [1] ... although, I will say that the interior of the i3 is very progressive and well done. Very impressive.

SpaceX_Tech 11y ago
This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I absolutely love the look of the i3 and don't understand the widespread derision it receives. I'm a big fan of industrial design/architecture/automotive design and try to study it extensively, albeit at the hobbyist level. My all time favorite cars are probably the 1973 Porsche 2.7RS and the 1960 Aston Martin DB4GT Jet by Bertone. I only say this as proof that I usually have what most would consider fairly good taste in cars and yet the i3 might be one of my favorite sub $100k cars released in the last few years. I admit that it tends to photographic poorly and BMW has a habit of painting them some very unflattering colors, including some really weird two tone colorways. The first time I saw the i3 in person it was painted a "unique" burnt orange/copper color and I thought it was hideous. Then when I finally saw one in person painted dark grey with nicer wheels my opinion completely changed. I also really like its size. I work right next door to Tesla's design studio here in Hawthorne and I can barely cross the street without seeing a model S. While I like the overall body shape there are a number of things that I strongly dislike such as the chrome accents around the windows and much of the front fascia, not to mention the large size. The i3 seems much more forward thinking to me from a design perspective. I’ve never actually sat in or driven one though. I’m curious if you or others wouldn’t mind sharing what you dislike about the i3, hopefully I haven’t completely lost my sense of style.
- rsync 11y ago
  "I’m curious if you or others wouldn’t mind sharing what you dislike about the i3, hopefully I haven’t completely lost my sense of style." I live in the SFBA and therefore see a lot of these in person. It's not that, by itself, it's a bad design - it's that it follows in a long, almost comical line of "things that look like electric cars" - sort of like the Mercedes B class. As I say, if you were mocking up a typical electric car for the onion, you'd come up with basically that. The model S has, in my opinion, a LOT of design shortcomings, but what is notable about it is that it's just a car. It's not a future car or a weird car or a thing that looks like an electric car - it's just a normal car-looking-thing.

vidoc 11y ago

Agreed, except maybe for PR, as nowadays it seems like Elon Musks is the new Steve Jobs in the mind of a lot people of the "Tech Community" or other incompetent "Tech Journalists" (sorry for the pleonasm).