4 ms·

> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation

by woodman 11y ago

> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. Some may say that the good intentions were misguided, but again - I've never heard the phrase used that way. The man wearing full plate armor, while trying to save a horse caught in a flash flood, ended up facing the music and drowning... doesn't sound right does it? > ...50/50 odds... You must have very little regard for your own freedom if you don't see that as being super bad advice to give.

pmalynin 11y ago
Facing the music. I think the expression has something to do with "Paying the piper" who of course plays music. I like it. But I don't think that Snowden should indeed face it.
- woodman 11y ago
  Well that answers my question about rationale, proponents for the music option are immediately distracted with the thought of a man in green tights dancing around with a pan flute. Oh and if I remember the story correctly, the piper was unpaid for ridding the city of rats - so he drowned all the children. So who are the rats, children and murderous flautist in the current context?
rl3 11y ago
>I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. Of course, "facing the music" would pretty much guarantee a life sentenced served at ADX Florence, so he'd be insane to even try it. >I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. There's a small chance he's even been been working for a foreign intelligence agency the entire time. Regardless of his intentions or motivations, the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Snowden facilitated the release of classified methods, capabilities and operations that fell squarely under the NSA's charter of gathering foreign intelligence. A significant portion of the operational details released didn't even relate to operations within other western democracies, but to nations or groups with questionable human rights records. While Snowden's actions did spark a large media frenzy and subsequent debate—if only because of the dramatic circumstances surrounding the leaks, and the fact he had document proof—the revelations themselves were largely nothing new. Numerous highly credible whistleblowers (e.g. Binney, Tice) had been advancing far more shocking revelations related to domestic wiretapping for approximately a decade prior. Despite having their careers ruined and weathering some even nastier retaliation attempts, they're still free today.
- woodman 11y ago
  First: thanks for answering the actual question. > It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. > It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. While possible, it is very unlikely that such a trait would manifest at this point in his life. I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap. Also, and I recognize the value of a stranger's personal experience, but in my experience: the background checks conducted for security clearance above secret (for military personnel) will filter a lot of narcissists out - as their story fails to match up when you go a hop beyond their provided references. > There's a small chance he's even been been working for... So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG. > ...the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Eh, I'm not a fan of the original sin concept - but the USG might share some of the responsibility. As far as the classified methods - you are spot on with the observation of the fact that there was nothing new. There were two classes of people before the leak: those who knew that USG had the technical ability and the disposition for a global dragnet, and those who didn't. Aside from posturing (commercial and political) there has been no change, which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known). So the leak did no harm to the security apparatus, but served to inform those who did not understand the USG's disposition on the matter of domestic and foreign surveillance.
  - rl3 11y ago
    >It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. That assumes the man did not first violate the sausage factory's trust by breaking numerous agreements pertaining to sausage use. >I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. Agreed; I dislike the phrase as well. It however doesn't absolve Snowden of responsibility. >I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap. My read is he's a bit self-aggrandizing and narcissistic at times. I'm not a professional, so that's only as good as any other lay person's assessment. >So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG. Or worse, the sausage factory. In all seriousness though, I'd classify the chances of him being a foreign intelligence asset as low—but not low enough so as to be non-trivial. >... which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known). I wouldn't be so sure: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9508191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9508191 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=20m39s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=20m39s (Last Week Tonight with John Oliver)
marcoperaza 11y ago
>I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. He divulged a lot of information about America's foreign intelligence operations as well. Spying on other countries is the original and core mission of the intelligence services. There's no question as to its legal legitimacy and he directly undermined it by revealing the nature and extent of our capabilities. It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example.
- woodman 11y ago
  That has nothing to do with his intent though, altruistic vs malevolent. > There's no question as to its legal legitimacy... Well maybe if you ignore the whole domestic surveillance part. There is also the moral and practical issue of intentionally weakening security infrastructure and standards.
- gurkendoktor 11y ago
  > It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example. It didn't really look like a serious problem from within Germany. Our administration is as pro-US as before. We've stopped sharing some information, but I doubt that has caused the NSA much trouble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relations#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relation...
  - pluma 11y ago
    The only thing that changed is that there's the NSA Untersuchungsausschuss, which is "investigating" the NSA spying affair. It's pretty clear that the investigations will not yield anything we don't already know and will have no consequences on US-German relations. Our NATO membership alone is enough to make us avoid upsetting the US at all costs (just as we've been turning a blind eye on Turkey all this time).

by woodman 11y ago

pmalynin 11y ago

Facing the music. I think the expression has something to do with "Paying the piper" who of course plays music. I like it. But I don't think that Snowden should indeed face it.

woodman 11y ago
Well that answers my question about rationale, proponents for the music option are immediately distracted with the thought of a man in green tights dancing around with a pan flute. Oh and if I remember the story correctly, the piper was unpaid for ridding the city of rats - so he drowned all the children. So who are the rats, children and murderous flautist in the current context?

rl3 11y ago

>I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. Of course, "facing the music" would pretty much guarantee a life sentenced served at ADX Florence, so he'd be insane to even try it. >I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. There's a small chance he's even been been working for a foreign intelligence agency the entire time. Regardless of his intentions or motivations, the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Snowden facilitated the release of classified methods, capabilities and operations that fell squarely under the NSA's charter of gathering foreign intelligence. A significant portion of the operational details released didn't even relate to operations within other western democracies, but to nations or groups with questionable human rights records. While Snowden's actions did spark a large media frenzy and subsequent debate—if only because of the dramatic circumstances surrounding the leaks, and the fact he had document proof—the revelations themselves were largely nothing new. Numerous highly credible whistleblowers (e.g. Binney, Tice) had been advancing far more shocking revelations related to domestic wiretapping for approximately a decade prior. Despite having their careers ruined and weathering some even nastier retaliation attempts, they're still free today.

woodman 11y ago
First: thanks for answering the actual question. > It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. > It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. While possible, it is very unlikely that such a trait would manifest at this point in his life. I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap. Also, and I recognize the value of a stranger's personal experience, but in my experience: the background checks conducted for security clearance above secret (for military personnel) will filter a lot of narcissists out - as their story fails to match up when you go a hop beyond their provided references. > There's a small chance he's even been been working for... So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG. > ...the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Eh, I'm not a fan of the original sin concept - but the USG might share some of the responsibility. As far as the classified methods - you are spot on with the observation of the fact that there was nothing new. There were two classes of people before the leak: those who knew that USG had the technical ability and the disposition for a global dragnet, and those who didn't. Aside from posturing (commercial and political) there has been no change, which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known). So the leak did no harm to the security apparatus, but served to inform those who did not understand the USG's disposition on the matter of domestic and foreign surveillance.
- rl3 11y ago
  >It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. That assumes the man did not first violate the sausage factory's trust by breaking numerous agreements pertaining to sausage use. >I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. Agreed; I dislike the phrase as well. It however doesn't absolve Snowden of responsibility. >I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap. My read is he's a bit self-aggrandizing and narcissistic at times. I'm not a professional, so that's only as good as any other lay person's assessment. >So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG. Or worse, the sausage factory. In all seriousness though, I'd classify the chances of him being a foreign intelligence asset as low—but not low enough so as to be non-trivial. >... which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known). I wouldn't be so sure: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9508191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9508191 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=20m39s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=20m39s (Last Week Tonight with John Oliver)

marcoperaza 11y ago

>I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. He divulged a lot of information about America's foreign intelligence operations as well. Spying on other countries is the original and core mission of the intelligence services. There's no question as to its legal legitimacy and he directly undermined it by revealing the nature and extent of our capabilities. It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example.

woodman 11y ago
That has nothing to do with his intent though, altruistic vs malevolent. > There's no question as to its legal legitimacy... Well maybe if you ignore the whole domestic surveillance part. There is also the moral and practical issue of intentionally weakening security infrastructure and standards.
gurkendoktor 11y ago
> It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example. It didn't really look like a serious problem from within Germany. Our administration is as pro-US as before. We've stopped sharing some information, but I doubt that has caused the NSA much trouble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relations#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relation...
- pluma 11y ago
  The only thing that changed is that there's the NSA Untersuchungsausschuss, which is "investigating" the NSA spying affair. It's pretty clear that the investigations will not yield anything we don't already know and will have no consequences on US-German relations. Our NATO membership alone is enough to make us avoid upsetting the US at all costs (just as we've been turning a blind eye on Turkey all this time).