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The US government isn't going to kidnap Edward Snowden at any point. He's too high profile and the press would eventually find out. And I don't think Putin will

The US government isn't going to kidnap Edward Snowden at any point. He's too high profile and the press would eventually find out. And I don't think Putin will let him leave Russia unless it would hurt the US in some way. If Snowden really wants to leave, he can probably leave. But the Russian government won't make it easy for him. Snowden should just come home and face the music. He'll probably get a pro bono all-star legal team and have 50/50 odds with a jury of his peers. With sufficient lawyering he could probably get away with five years at worst, and then go back to life in America as even more of a hero.

nyolfen 10y ago
You can't present a real defense in espionage cases. It's a question of whether you performed actions that qualify as espionage or not in court, motivation is not allowed to enter the equation. It's very likely he'd spend decades in solitary, a la Manning.
woodman 10y ago
> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. Some may say that the good intentions were misguided, but again - I've never heard the phrase used that way. The man wearing full plate armor, while trying to save a horse caught in a flash flood, ended up facing the music and drowning... doesn't sound right does it? > ...50/50 odds... You must have very little regard for your own freedom if you don't see that as being super bad advice to give.
- pmalynin 10y ago
  Facing the music. I think the expression has something to do with "Paying the piper" who of course plays music. I like it. But I don't think that Snowden should indeed face it.
  - woodman 10y ago
    Well that answers my question about rationale, proponents for the music option are immediately distracted with the thought of a man in green tights dancing around with a pan flute. Oh and if I remember the story correctly, the piper was unpaid for ridding the city of rats - so he drowned all the children. So who are the rats, children and murderous flautist in the current context?
- rl3 10y ago
  >I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. Of course, "facing the music" would pretty much guarantee a life sentenced served at ADX Florence, so he'd be insane to even try it. >I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. There's a small chance he's even been been working for a foreign intelligence agency the entire time. Regardless of his intentions or motivations, the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Snowden facilitated the release of classified methods, capabilities and operations that fell squarely under the NSA's charter of gathering foreign intelligence. A significant portion of the operational details released didn't even relate to operations within other western democracies, but to nations or groups with questionable human rights records. While Snowden's actions did spark a large media frenzy and subsequent debate—if only because of the dramatic circumstances surrounding the leaks, and the fact he had document proof—the revelations themselves were largely nothing new. Numerous highly credible whistleblowers (e.g. Binney, Tice) had been advancing far more shocking revelations related to domestic wiretapping for approximately a decade prior. Despite having their careers ruined and weathering some even nastier retaliation attempts, they're still free today.
  - woodman 10y ago
    First: thanks for answering the actual question. > It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. > It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. While possible, it is very unlikely that such a trait would manifest at this point in his life. I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap. Also, and I recognize the value of a stranger's personal experience, but in my experience: the background checks conducted for security clearance above secret (for military personnel) will filter a lot of narcissists out - as their story fails to match up when you go a hop beyond their provided references. > There's a small chance he's even been been working for... So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG. > ...the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Eh, I'm not a fan of the original sin concept - but the USG might share some of the responsibility. As far as the classified methods - you are spot on with the observation of the fact that there was nothing new. There were two classes of people before the leak: those who knew that USG had the technical ability and the disposition for a global dragnet, and those who didn't. Aside from posturing (commercial and political) there has been no change, which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known). So the leak did no harm to the security apparatus, but served to inform those who did not understand the USG's disposition on the matter of domestic and foreign surveillance.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  >I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. He divulged a lot of information about America's foreign intelligence operations as well. Spying on other countries is the original and core mission of the intelligence services. There's no question as to its legal legitimacy and he directly undermined it by revealing the nature and extent of our capabilities. It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example.
  - woodman 10y ago
    That has nothing to do with his intent though, altruistic vs malevolent. > There's no question as to its legal legitimacy... Well maybe if you ignore the whole domestic surveillance part. There is also the moral and practical issue of intentionally weakening security infrastructure and standards.
  - gurkendoktor 10y ago
    > It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example. It didn't really look like a serious problem from within Germany. Our administration is as pro-US as before. We've stopped sharing some information, but I doubt that has caused the NSA much trouble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relations#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relation...
    - pluma 10y ago
      The only thing that changed is that there's the NSA Untersuchungsausschuss, which is "investigating" the NSA spying affair. It's pretty clear that the investigations will not yield anything we don't already know and will have no consequences on US-German relations. Our NATO membership alone is enough to make us avoid upsetting the US at all costs (just as we've been turning a blind eye on Turkey all this time).
declan 10y ago
"he could probably get away with five years at worst" For better or for worse, federal prison sentences do not work this way. There are sentencing guidelines, for one thing. Chelsea Manning is serving a 35-year prison sentence at Fort Leavenworth; prosecutors asked for 60 years. Manning is eligible for parole after serving one-third (I recall) of that sentence.
tripzilch 10y ago
> Snowden should just come home and face the music. You're calling for a man's certain torture and possible death. What the hell is wrong with you.

nyolfen 10y ago

You can't present a real defense in espionage cases. It's a question of whether you performed actions that qualify as espionage or not in court, motivation is not allowed to enter the equation. It's very likely he'd spend decades in solitary, a la Manning.

woodman 10y ago

> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. Some may say that the good intentions were misguided, but again - I've never heard the phrase used that way. The man wearing full plate armor, while trying to save a horse caught in a flash flood, ended up facing the music and drowning... doesn't sound right does it? > ...50/50 odds... You must have very little regard for your own freedom if you don't see that as being super bad advice to give.

pmalynin 10y ago
Facing the music. I think the expression has something to do with "Paying the piper" who of course plays music. I like it. But I don't think that Snowden should indeed face it.
- woodman 10y ago
  Well that answers my question about rationale, proponents for the music option are immediately distracted with the thought of a man in green tights dancing around with a pan flute. Oh and if I remember the story correctly, the piper was unpaid for ridding the city of rats - so he drowned all the children. So who are the rats, children and murderous flautist in the current context?
rl3 10y ago
>I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. Of course, "facing the music" would pretty much guarantee a life sentenced served at ADX Florence, so he'd be insane to even try it. >I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. There's a small chance he's even been been working for a foreign intelligence agency the entire time. Regardless of his intentions or motivations, the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Snowden facilitated the release of classified methods, capabilities and operations that fell squarely under the NSA's charter of gathering foreign intelligence. A significant portion of the operational details released didn't even relate to operations within other western democracies, but to nations or groups with questionable human rights records. While Snowden's actions did spark a large media frenzy and subsequent debate—if only because of the dramatic circumstances surrounding the leaks, and the fact he had document proof—the revelations themselves were largely nothing new. Numerous highly credible whistleblowers (e.g. Binney, Tice) had been advancing far more shocking revelations related to domestic wiretapping for approximately a decade prior. Despite having their careers ruined and weathering some even nastier retaliation attempts, they're still free today.
- woodman 10y ago
  First: thanks for answering the actual question. > It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. > It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. While possible, it is very unlikely that such a trait would manifest at this point in his life. I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap. Also, and I recognize the value of a stranger's personal experience, but in my experience: the background checks conducted for security clearance above secret (for military personnel) will filter a lot of narcissists out - as their story fails to match up when you go a hop beyond their provided references. > There's a small chance he's even been been working for... So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG. > ...the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy. Eh, I'm not a fan of the original sin concept - but the USG might share some of the responsibility. As far as the classified methods - you are spot on with the observation of the fact that there was nothing new. There were two classes of people before the leak: those who knew that USG had the technical ability and the disposition for a global dragnet, and those who didn't. Aside from posturing (commercial and political) there has been no change, which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known). So the leak did no harm to the security apparatus, but served to inform those who did not understand the USG's disposition on the matter of domestic and foreign surveillance.
marcoperaza 10y ago
>I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. He divulged a lot of information about America's foreign intelligence operations as well. Spying on other countries is the original and core mission of the intelligence services. There's no question as to its legal legitimacy and he directly undermined it by revealing the nature and extent of our capabilities. It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example.
- woodman 10y ago
  That has nothing to do with his intent though, altruistic vs malevolent. > There's no question as to its legal legitimacy... Well maybe if you ignore the whole domestic surveillance part. There is also the moral and practical issue of intentionally weakening security infrastructure and standards.
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  > It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example. It didn't really look like a serious problem from within Germany. Our administration is as pro-US as before. We've stopped sharing some information, but I doubt that has caused the NSA much trouble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relations#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relation...
  - pluma 10y ago
    The only thing that changed is that there's the NSA Untersuchungsausschuss, which is "investigating" the NSA spying affair. It's pretty clear that the investigations will not yield anything we don't already know and will have no consequences on US-German relations. Our NATO membership alone is enough to make us avoid upsetting the US at all costs (just as we've been turning a blind eye on Turkey all this time).

declan 10y ago

"he could probably get away with five years at worst" For better or for worse, federal prison sentences do not work this way. There are sentencing guidelines, for one thing. Chelsea Manning is serving a 35-year prison sentence at Fort Leavenworth; prosecutors asked for 60 years. Manning is eligible for parole after serving one-third (I recall) of that sentence.

tripzilch 10y ago

> Snowden should just come home and face the music. You're calling for a man's certain torture and possible death. What the hell is wrong with you.