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There are strong parallels between the personality concepts of self & other and the immune system. If you take the metaphor far enough anything that exists sep

There are strong parallels between the personality concepts of self & other and the immune system. If you take the metaphor far enough anything that exists separately from the cosmic background radiation has a means for separating itself from its surroundings for some period of time. This is true for things that are alive as well as things we don't usually assign identity to: a cereal box has a cardboard flap to keep cereal in and bugs out. A star has gravity and gas pressure in equilibrium to keep most of its mass inside a radius. People who study consciousness (previously pure philosophers like david chalmers, increasingly mathematical physicists like max tegmark) are fascinated by this kind of thing.

maroonblazer 11y ago
Indeed. I'd add to the mix Derek Parfit. "Reasons and Persons"[0], most famously calls into question the notion of the 'self' and how illusory it is. It has had a profoundly positive impact upon how I view myself, others and my relationship to them. [0]http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-Persons-Derek-Parfit/dp/019824908X http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-Persons-Derek-Parfit/dp/019824...
linhchi 11y ago
I think consciousness is programed to first and foremost identify your skin to be your boundary (for survival). But then, when you train to master an external tool, like a bike, you feel the boundary of the whole system to be your boundary (for example: when you're able to manage the bike at incredbly flexible level, ie you control it at will). Same for cognitive medium (like mathematics, we are able to think in term of mathematical concept to express ourselves better in daily life matter -> we have more freedom), so augmented human seems far future, but tools are augmenting us everywhere. (Augment = expand capability). And the limit of my tools are the limit of my world. It's also true for other-regarding preference, if you identify someone (your kid) to be yours, you can take a cost for them. Or lovers, they self-interest the joy of each other.
egjerlow 11y ago
>If you take the metaphor far enough anything that exists separately from the cosmic background radiation has a means for separating itself from its surroundings for some period of time. >A star has gravity and gas pressure in equilibrium to keep most of its mass inside a radius. Although I think I see the contours of what you're getting at here, I would like some elaboration on these points. This statement is teleological, and if I was a pedant I would point out that the cereal box was designed while a star is what happens 'naturally' in a universe like ours. However, I am not a pedant ;) so would you care to explain this metaphor and what it is supposed to 'mean' a bit further?
- awinter-py 11y ago
  I'm not making a deep point; everything which is separate has a way of enforcing inside vs outside. Some are robust (fort knox). Others are temporary, diffuse and don't hang around (a fart). Some have instruction content to help enforce their boundaries (i.e. DNA, a computer program, or the army corps of engineers manual). At the point where an object ceases to use pure physics and starts to use information to defend its boundary, the rejection of non-self is often acquired early on. (with obvious selection bias). If you want to rule out any supernatural stuff, you model it as: the cereal box is part of a system that includes general mills, kids like you, and this grrrreat breakfast. Most of the information content of the system is at general mills (infectious) and the consumer (defense). Tony the tiger is a plot to play kids against adults and get those boxes into households. So is putting the boxes on the bottom shelf at supermarkets. The even creepier view is that the cereal box has some independent existence and the box is gaming general mills to propagate its existence. Before you object that the information content and reproductive machine of the box are external, consider a sperm cell or a seed pod. Neither of these has the full information of its system; neither is self-serving. Sexual reproduction also means that in normal practice (ignoring lizards and parthenogenesis), no individual has the full machinery of the species. Note: I'm not ascribing intellect, intention or consciousness to any of these objects. Just drawing the boundaries of information in convenient places. It's not crazy to say that a cereal box exists as a separate thing. Once you say that, you have to consider whether it exists separately from general mills (it does, other companies use it). Your process hangup, evolved vs coalesced vs designed, is an important distinction and may bias the sorts of forms that emerge. Evolved and designed end up being similar; both are shaking up information particles until something emerges that can propogate itself. Thomas Edison set out to design a light-bulb but he didn't set out to be born as thomas edison; the ball was rolling down the hill when he started. Not to take away from people's inventions, but if you compare across 100 alien worlds, maybe there are patterns about when the lightbulb is invented, and most worlds do it after certain other pieces are in place. Another example is the eye: this is an evolutionary form that shows up when pigments and neurons are in the genome but something more is needed. A wire gets crossed and there is no turning back.
  - awinter-py 11y ago
kr4 11y ago
this separation comes from the feeling of "I-ness" or ego. in true circles of yoga, where the stress isn't on physical exercises (that's considered not even 1% part of Yoga), consciousness is considered as the subtlest substance that's pervading the whole infinite cosmos. The term Yoga itself means "to unite" with this consciousness. Since it's an unbroken infinite substance, once united you can experience and observe things quite apart – as if the whole of universe becomes accessible to your sense of awareness. The yoga or unity happens by gradually peeling the layer of false ego (I-ness) that creates the impression of separation in the first place. The ego is built on labels we assign to ourselves and to protect its existence it makes us do selfish stuff. That's why the 8 limbs of yoga has its first two limbs as the virtues and moral conducts that one should follow to pgrogress on the path. Like For instance, truthfulness, non-violence, non-stealing, non–collecting,a balanced sexual life, essentially means control over your senses and living without over-indulgence and so on. If you observe these principles carefully they're exactly the type if followed with sincerity make our actions and thoughts more selfless causing ego to break gradually. still posture and smooth deep breath helps in regulating the otherwise ever-wandering mind – the mind is where the feeling of separation resides. Those virtues also help in reducing the chattering of mind while doing meditation. Meditation helps in silencing the mind by concentrating on a particular form or formless for ever-increasing length of time – when the mind is silent, one goes beyond the mind and that's when the unity or yoga occurs with the consciousness.

maroonblazer 11y ago

Indeed. I'd add to the mix Derek Parfit. "Reasons and Persons"[0], most famously calls into question the notion of the 'self' and how illusory it is. It has had a profoundly positive impact upon how I view myself, others and my relationship to them. [0]http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-Persons-Derek-Parfit/dp/019824908X http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-Persons-Derek-Parfit/dp/019824...

linhchi 11y ago

I think consciousness is programed to first and foremost identify your skin to be your boundary (for survival). But then, when you train to master an external tool, like a bike, you feel the boundary of the whole system to be your boundary (for example: when you're able to manage the bike at incredbly flexible level, ie you control it at will). Same for cognitive medium (like mathematics, we are able to think in term of mathematical concept to express ourselves better in daily life matter -> we have more freedom), so augmented human seems far future, but tools are augmenting us everywhere. (Augment = expand capability). And the limit of my tools are the limit of my world. It's also true for other-regarding preference, if you identify someone (your kid) to be yours, you can take a cost for them. Or lovers, they self-interest the joy of each other.

egjerlow 11y ago

>If you take the metaphor far enough anything that exists separately from the cosmic background radiation has a means for separating itself from its surroundings for some period of time. >A star has gravity and gas pressure in equilibrium to keep most of its mass inside a radius. Although I think I see the contours of what you're getting at here, I would like some elaboration on these points. This statement is teleological, and if I was a pedant I would point out that the cereal box was designed while a star is what happens 'naturally' in a universe like ours. However, I am not a pedant ;) so would you care to explain this metaphor and what it is supposed to 'mean' a bit further?

awinter-py 11y ago
I'm not making a deep point; everything which is separate has a way of enforcing inside vs outside. Some are robust (fort knox). Others are temporary, diffuse and don't hang around (a fart). Some have instruction content to help enforce their boundaries (i.e. DNA, a computer program, or the army corps of engineers manual). At the point where an object ceases to use pure physics and starts to use information to defend its boundary, the rejection of non-self is often acquired early on. (with obvious selection bias). If you want to rule out any supernatural stuff, you model it as: the cereal box is part of a system that includes general mills, kids like you, and this grrrreat breakfast. Most of the information content of the system is at general mills (infectious) and the consumer (defense). Tony the tiger is a plot to play kids against adults and get those boxes into households. So is putting the boxes on the bottom shelf at supermarkets. The even creepier view is that the cereal box has some independent existence and the box is gaming general mills to propagate its existence. Before you object that the information content and reproductive machine of the box are external, consider a sperm cell or a seed pod. Neither of these has the full information of its system; neither is self-serving. Sexual reproduction also means that in normal practice (ignoring lizards and parthenogenesis), no individual has the full machinery of the species. Note: I'm not ascribing intellect, intention or consciousness to any of these objects. Just drawing the boundaries of information in convenient places. It's not crazy to say that a cereal box exists as a separate thing. Once you say that, you have to consider whether it exists separately from general mills (it does, other companies use it). Your process hangup, evolved vs coalesced vs designed, is an important distinction and may bias the sorts of forms that emerge. Evolved and designed end up being similar; both are shaking up information particles until something emerges that can propogate itself. Thomas Edison set out to design a light-bulb but he didn't set out to be born as thomas edison; the ball was rolling down the hill when he started. Not to take away from people's inventions, but if you compare across 100 alien worlds, maybe there are patterns about when the lightbulb is invented, and most worlds do it after certain other pieces are in place. Another example is the eye: this is an evolutionary form that shows up when pigments and neurons are in the genome but something more is needed. A wire gets crossed and there is no turning back.
- awinter-py 11y ago

kr4 11y ago

this separation comes from the feeling of "I-ness" or ego. in true circles of yoga, where the stress isn't on physical exercises (that's considered not even 1% part of Yoga), consciousness is considered as the subtlest substance that's pervading the whole infinite cosmos. The term Yoga itself means "to unite" with this consciousness. Since it's an unbroken infinite substance, once united you can experience and observe things quite apart – as if the whole of universe becomes accessible to your sense of awareness. The yoga or unity happens by gradually peeling the layer of false ego (I-ness) that creates the impression of separation in the first place. The ego is built on labels we assign to ourselves and to protect its existence it makes us do selfish stuff. That's why the 8 limbs of yoga has its first two limbs as the virtues and moral conducts that one should follow to pgrogress on the path. Like For instance, truthfulness, non-violence, non-stealing, non–collecting,a balanced sexual life, essentially means control over your senses and living without over-indulgence and so on. If you observe these principles carefully they're exactly the type if followed with sincerity make our actions and thoughts more selfless causing ego to break gradually. still posture and smooth deep breath helps in regulating the otherwise ever-wandering mind – the mind is where the feeling of separation resides. Those virtues also help in reducing the chattering of mind while doing meditation. Meditation helps in silencing the mind by concentrating on a particular form or formless for ever-increasing length of time – when the mind is silent, one goes beyond the mind and that's when the unity or yoga occurs with the consciousness.