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Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him
- toyg 11y agoOn Reuters (i.e. free): http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-snowden-norway-idUSKCN0XI1WU http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-snowden-norwa...
- majewsky 11y agoIt's also free on WSJ when you come in with a Google referer. Google search for "wall street journal snowden assurance" worked for me.
- _Codemonkeyism 11y agoI use the "web" link below the title for that ;-) (Didn't want to be snarky just friendly)
- toyg 11y agoWell, TIL :)
- didbdohd 11y agoSeems unlikely. He also needs assurance the flight between Russia and Norway won't be grounded or redirected on route.
- RijilV 11y agoPresumably he'd drive, as Norway and Russia share a border. What isn't clear to me from the article is why he'd risk it for an award from a group of writers who have branches in Russia..
- CPLX 11y agoOne obvious guess would be that it's a dress rehearsal for a possible Nobel peace prize win.
- 21 11y agoIt would also be a powerful statement if he could visit western countries without being arrested.
- vonklaus 11y ago> It would also be a powerful statement It would be powerful. It's actualy shameful that Assange and Snowden are so constrained, especially for telling the truth. Ironically, Roman Palanski plead guilty to raping a 13 year old. Later, he was detained in Switzerland but they denied a U.S. extradition request. It's sad basic travel would send a powerful message, just because that means many assume that these constraints are a foregone conclusion.
- blazespin 11y agoProbably has a bit more weight if the award comes from a country other than Russia. Plus if the court lets him go, than he probably can increase his travel options generally.
- vintermann 11y agoThe Ossietzky price is awarded by the Norwegian branch of PEN. Carl von Ossietzky was the first Nobel Peace Prize recipient who wasn't able to receive his prize in person (he was ill and imprisoned in Nazi Germany), so it's a symbolic point for them to award it in the same place Ossietzky would have received his price, i.e. in the town hall of Oslo.
- toyg 11y agoTBH it'd be even more powerful if Snowden could not receive the prize: "Western Europe is now at a point not reached even under the Third Reich."
- M2Ys4U 11y agoWell he could take a land or a sea route; Norway and Russia share a land border but it would be going the long way round.
- rdancer 11y ago> sea route Through international or territorial waters of third countries? Not unless he's hitching a ride on RFS Bespokoynyy.
- kmonsen 11y agoYou can stay in Russian/Norwegian waters. The quicker option would probably be Finnish/Swedish waters from St.Petersburg.
- charliedevolve 11y agoWell, based on Assange's history, I wouldn't travel through Swedish territory if I were him.
- rdancer 11y agoGP and I mean the Baltic route; if he went around, sailing would not be quicker than driving.
- kmonsen 11y agoWould he have a guarantee he would be allowed back in Russia? If not I guess he can stay in Norway indefinitely but would need a work visa as well.
- xaduha 11y agoWould Putin even let him leave Russia?
- EthanHeilman 11y agoIt would look really bad for Russia if Snowden was held against his will.
- xaduha 11y agoThere's a gradient between 'free' and 'held against his will', I'm sure there are plenty of ways Snowden can be discouraged from taking a chance like that.
- exabrial 11y agoThey would care you think?
- mcv 11y agoYeah, but Russia already looks pretty bad for a variety of other reasons. I don't find this a particularly compelling argument.
- eric_h 11y agoSo I'm curious how Snowden supports himself while exiled in Russia. How does he pay for these law firms representing him?
- was_boring 11y agoHe has a job, and I would imagine a network of supporters.
- Moral_ 11y agoThey represent him for free.
- dbbolton 11y ago> In May 2015, Snowden's lawyer Ben Wizner said that Snowden's main source of income was speaking fees, which sometimes exceeded $10,000 per appearance.[308] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#2015
- AdmiralAsshat 11y agohttps://www.yahoo.com/news/report-snowden-gets-tech-support-job-russia-111107200--finance.html?ref=gs https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-snowden-gets-tech-support-...
- cat-dev-null 11y agoThere's direct Aeroflot flights between Moscow and Oslo (SVO - OSL). US fighters and/or ships could _arguably_ intercept a civilian aircraft in international waters and force landing in another country.
- kmonsen 11y agoIf he would be safe in Noway I think the transportation issue is easy solvable. Wonder if the US would feel like they could kidnap him from the streets, and maybe Norway would promise to look the other way. The plane would not have to go over international waters and/or other countries, but usually do.
- cat-dev-null 11y agoThat's unlikely because he would obviously have security (costing a $2-3k USD for decent-sized detail). A chartered flight (light or mid-sized jet) would be around $30k USD.
- hooloovoo_zoo 11y agoSecurity is for stalkers; there's nothing they can do if a team of marines shows up.
- lb1lf 11y agoA team of Marines showing up is not very likely; while most Norwegians don't care too much about Edward Snowden (Edward who?), soldiers of a foreign power executing an operation on Norwegian soil would create an outrage that would definitely topple our government. For starters. I really can't see our (US-friendly) government allowing such an operation, knowing full well it will make them look terribly bad and in all likelihood cost them their jobs AND their reputation. And the US deploying Marines in Norway without the government's explicit consent? That is called an invasion, and not likely to go down well, either.
- pluma 11y ago
- rl3 11y agoSounds like a great way to get nabbed by a CIA snatch-and-grab operation. Even if his FSB protection plans the field trip and accompanies him, it's still a huge risk. It also provides an ample opportunity for Russia to divest themselves of Snowden should they wish, making the West look bad in the process. Norway's NIS maintains a friendly relationship with U.S. intelligence.[0] NSA documents leaked by Snowden refer to Norway as a "Tier B" country.[1] The only thing higher is "Tier A"—Five Eyes member nations. [0] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KW_21XnezyY/Usdezt9SifI/AAAAAAAABHE/9DJaHKzSayY/s1600/norway-usa-relationship.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KW_21XnezyY/Usdezt9SifI/AAAAAAAABH... [1] http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NRWNh0OgZwQ/UrEBhQltzrI/AAAAAAAABFg/98_mh5CocKw/s1600/elmundo-list.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NRWNh0OgZwQ/UrEBhQltzrI/AAAAAAAABF...
- toyg 11y agoThe whole process is probably an attempt to get Norway to grant him asylum by the backdoor. I can see the rationale but I don't think I'd trust any place where the executive isn't fully committed.
- Ueland 11y agoNorway does at lot of intelligence gathering around Svalbard/North Atlantic against the russians due to the large fleet base at Murmansk. The ships used is typicly equipped in the US before entering service.
- walrus01 11y agothere was at one time talk of expanding the 'five eyes' community to seven or nine, countries such as norway, denmark and germany would have been the top candidates for inclusion.
- andersonmvd 11y agoSo many threats along the way: 1) kidnap before reaching the airport 2) not be allowed to leave Russia 3) be intercepted between Russia and Norway 4) be caught in Norway after arrive 5) be caught in Norway before departure back to Russia 6) be caught during travel back to Russia 7) not be allowed to go back to Russia at all 8) be caught after arrive in Russia 9) be caught before going back to his apartment 10) be caught soon after arriving on his apartment 11) be caught later on
- sundvor 11y agoWell, he could just travel by land through Finnmark. That'd take the air plane intercept out of the question.
- majewsky 11y agoNumbers 1 and 9 through 11 are not really relevant for this discussion. Or is there evidence that he is restricted to his apartment (either by his own choice or by force)?
- dschweig 11y agoRemember Anders Behring? He was sentenced for 21 years for his terrorist attack in 2011. I find it hard to believe a country that has the most humane prison system in the world would extradite Snowden back the the US...
- nickkthequick 11y agoSeems tough to bet your life on that bit of logic
- c_c_c 11y agoIt's Anders Behring Breivik. Also, Norway has an extradition treaty with the United States since the 80s. Not to be harsh (really), but it doesn't matter what you believe. Edit: Breivik will never be released btw. Also, court found yesterday that elements of his incarceration violated Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- Ueland 11y agoHe is de facto sentenced to life in prison. And Snowden is a US citizen and will be extradited. Unless the this case the thread is about gives him a win.
- marvin 11y agoThe Norwegian government is too entangled with US interests, due to our defense doctrine and role in NATO ("hold out for 24 hours while the rest of NATO mobilizes"). Although many Norwegian politicians probably have personal sympathies for Snowden's legal situation, it's very doubtful that anything short of a Supreme Court ruling would prevent Norwegian authorities of cooperating with the US when it comes to arresting and extraditing Snowden.
- toyg 11y ago> it's very doubtful that anything short of a Supreme Court ruling would prevent Norwegian authorities Considering how international laws are now completely ignored by our imperial masters (see Abu Omar, rendition flights, the raid on Kim Dotcom, etc etc), I would say it's very doubtful anything short of a couple of panzer divisions would prevent any US-friendly authorities from helping out.
- a3n 11y agoI think if the US can have a President's plane redirected, forced to land, and searched, with that President on it, they wouldn't have much trouble getting Norway to look the other way for a few minutes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Morales_plane_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Morales_plane_i...
- pluma 11y agoThe forced landing of Morales' plane was probably one of those moments I felt most ashamed to be a European. It was an absolute disgrace and nobody seemed to care.
- krylon 11y agoSadly, I have to agree. In Germany, some people demand that the government should offer Snowden asylum, but while I would appreciate the gesture (not that the government would seriously consider doing something like that), if I were in Snowden's place, I would not set foot in a country that is so deeply in bed with the USA (not to mention the US military bases in Germany). Which does not leave many places where Snowden could go and be safe.
- arca_vorago 11y agoOne thing yo remember is Norway isnt partnof NATO, which makes quite a bit of difference in this. Still not sure what the end result will be, but good luck to Snowden and I hope Norway does it. If only so I dont have to hear any more ignoramouses talk about how Snowden went to Russia on purpose.
- progre 11y agoNorway IS a full NATO member.
- vinay427 11y agoYes, it's a founding member at that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO
- drjesusphd 11y agoNorway is a Nato member, but Sweden and Finland aren't.
- arca_vorago 11y agoSorry everyone, I was wrong about that as is pretty obvious. I was remembering the story about google building a datacenter in Finland confused it with Norway.
- portlander12345 11y agoAlthough technically Russia and Norway share a land border, you would have to drive thousands of miles through extremely remote arctic areas, where the major routes are single-lane roads and the nearest settlements may be hours apart. If one is worried about underhanded tactics by the US, this seems quite a dangerous way to go.
- mc32 11y agoPossibility, yes, but realistically no. I don't see them kidnapping him as a way to bring him before US courts. If I were him I'd be a little more worried about local gangs with little to do and one too many crazy ideas knowing who he is and trying to kidnap him and avail him at some price.
- toyg 11y ago> If I were him I'd be a little more worried about local gangs Yeah, all those famous Norwegian kidnapping gangs. /facepalm
- pluma 11y agoWhat makes you think he would be brought before US courts if he were kidnapped? Given the US intelligence services' track record it's far more likely a kidnapping would result in his disappearance -- alive or not.
- karmacondon 11y agoThe US government isn't going to kidnap Edward Snowden at any point. He's too high profile and the press would eventually find out. And I don't think Putin will let him leave Russia unless it would hurt the US in some way. If Snowden really wants to leave, he can probably leave. But the Russian government won't make it easy for him. Snowden should just come home and face the music. He'll probably get a pro bono all-star legal team and have 50/50 odds with a jury of his peers. With sufficient lawyering he could probably get away with five years at worst, and then go back to life in America as even more of a hero.
- nyolfen 11y agoYou can't present a real defense in espionage cases. It's a question of whether you performed actions that qualify as espionage or not in court, motivation is not allowed to enter the equation. It's very likely he'd spend decades in solitary, a la Manning.
- woodman 11y ago> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. Some may say that the good intentions were misguided, but again - I've never heard the phrase used that way. The man wearing full plate armor, while trying to save a horse caught in a flash flood, ended up facing the music and drowning... doesn't sound right does it? > ...50/50 odds... You must have very little regard for your own freedom if you don't see that as being super bad advice to give.
- pmalynin 11y agoFacing the music. I think the expression has something to do with "Paying the piper" who of course plays music. I like it. But I don't think that Snowden should indeed face it.
- woodman 11y agoWell that answers my question about rationale, proponents for the music option are immediately distracted with the thought of a man in green tights dancing around with a pan flute. Oh and if I remember the story correctly, the piper was unpaid for ridding the city of rats - so he drowned all the children. So who are the rats, children and murderous flautist in the current context?
- benevol 11y agoWhatever we can speculate about the ifs and hows of this situation, let's keep in mind that incredibly courageous people like Snowden have to endure what they endure because people like us, citizens, don't seem to stand up to corrupt governments anymore.
- iamthepieman 11y agoFrom a recent interview with Snowden by Reason magazine I mean again, this sort of political direction gets beyond my expertise so I don’t like to talk too much about. You know you brought up an interesting point there about Russia that I think is actually important to contextualize. There’s a lot of fair criticism that’s like, “Hey, this guy’s in Russia.” It’s important to understand that I never intended to end up in Russia. Originally I was hoping to get to Iceland. After that, Latin America when Iceland fell through. But the State Department cancelled my passport, trapping me in Russia when I was initially on the move, as soon as they heard I was in the air. Despite the fact that I’ve asked several times, they’ve refused to reinstate it, which is quite interesting. The United States of course criticizes me for being in Russia but at the same time they won’t let me leave. Full arcticle here http://reason.com/archives/2016/02/25/edward-snowden/ http://reason.com/archives/2016/02/25/edward-snowden/
- PlzSnow 11y agoIf he's so courageous then why doesn't he ever criticise the corrupt totalitarian state of Russia? I really can't imagine why...
- Roritharr 11y agoBecause you pick your battles. One evil superpower at a time.
- neverminder 11y agoHe who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.
- toyg 11y agoHe does. https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/718800782515118080 https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/718800782515118080
- legulere 11y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- hartpuff 11y agoYou can be courageous without being suicidal.
- Grue3 11y agoHow is it courageous to safely live (and have permanent residency) in Russia and criticize the US? This is basically what every pro-Putin Russian politican does every single day.
- chriswarbo 11y agoMany people are already highly critical of Russia (see, for example, yourself); what could Snowden add to that, and would it be worth the cost? Before Snowden's leaks, those critical of the NSA could be shrugged off as paranoid tinfoil hats; Snowden not only brought that criticism into the public light, but provided hard evidence to back it up. That was a great contribution, and one he thought was worth the (also great) cost.
- PlzSnow 11y agoWhy would Snowden get assurance from the the Norwegian government? There is nothing special about him.
- mercurial 11y agoHow hard does the US government want him back, now that the cat is out of the bag? Obviously, the US don't want to appear "soft" on the matter - the interest of the administration is to avoid future whistleblowers by having a tough posture. But Snowden has a pretty massive following worldwide, on a scale that Assange and Chelsea Manning don't have. Wouldn't a trial be a terrible PR move, on top of raising embarrassing question about the activities of the NSA and their legality?
- pluma 11y agoAt this stage I'm certain one of three things will happen if the US can get a hold of him: 1) he will be secretly disappeared in a way that gives the US plausible deniability. 2) he will die in an "accident". 3) he will be taken to trial and put away for life, most likely in solitary confinement ("for his own safety"). It is obvious nobody actually cares about the activities of the NSA and their legality at this point. There has been some bad PR around it but all in all the American public hasn't revolted and the allies are still under control and don't want to risk it. Also, to this day, Snowden is routinely referred to as "a leaker" and US politicians' calls for his death and branding him as a traitor have been met with nary any criticism. At this point it's no longer about what secrets Snowden can reveal, it's just about neutralizing what the US government (as in: politicians and state officials) considers a threat to its interests (as in: their interests, not those of the nation). And to make an example of him, obviously.
- mercurial 11y ago1) Would demand a lot of creativity. "Plausible deniability" when you are the prime suspect is hard to achieve. 2) I don't believe that for a second. Not because the US are not willing to kill people, but because of the level of scrutiny. 3) He would certainly go to trial. I don't know how that'd turn out, but I don't see that advancing the political career of anyone (that said, I'm not American, maybe I'm misjudging the American public).
- notahacker 11y agoAgree. With Assange I think it's even more obviously the case that it wouldn't actually be in US government interests to bring him to trial in the US. He's a skilled communicator, has a similar and even more fanatically loyal following, is a civilian holding the passport of of an allied state, and it's by no means certain what they could charge him with never mind how they could secure a conviction that looked like justice to the average voter. I bet security chiefs were besides themselves with glee when allegations completely unrelated to his day-to-day activities emerged, and even more delighted when his response was to refuse to defend himself against the allegation on the basis that it must be part of a coordinated dirty tricks campaign against his freedom of speech. It's great to get the chilling effect on those most likely to be motivated to expose government wrongdoing without actually having to do anything, never mind do something that the average voter might think is going too far.
- kiproping 11y agoIt's good we have countries like Russia and China that the US cannot bend to their will. Imagine if all countries in the world were stooges of America. Scary.
- alkonaut 11y agoI assume Norways laws work similar to Swedens, meaning there can be no guarantees of non-extradiction (because preempting a legal decision usinga a political one is illegal, and the extradiction would be handled only when it is requested - which can only be done once he is actually in norway). So the same thing might happen to Snowden that happened to Assange - no guarantees up front. The best they can do in that case is make broader statements that e.g. "we do not extradite anyone who faces political charges and/or risks the death penalty". It's safe to say Snowden fits into both categories.
- fpoling 11y agoExactly! It is up to the court system to decide what to do about a particular case. Any promise from a government official will be a lie.
- alkonaut 11y agoThey can circumvent it pretty easily by not saying "We will not extradite Edward Snowden" but simply doing by making a very clear statement of two facts: i) "We do not extradite anyone who would risk a death penalty" and ii) "We believe it is clear that Edward Snowden would risk a death penalty in the US". Having said those two things (which they can), they have implied the what he wants to know, without breaking any laws.
- vintermann 11y agoIt's also a myth that Sweden can't do the same for Assange (although one defended by certain lawyers for political reasons). The courts can only stop extraditions, not non-extraditions. Politicians like to pretend their hands are tied because they would like to blame the bureaucracy for unpopular decisions, but they have full freedom to interpret their own bilateral treaty obligations. If the Norwegian government says he's a political refugee, he is as far as Norwegian law is concerned.
- alkonaut 11y ago
- csense 11y agoEven if Snowden gets this assurance from the Norweigans, how can he be sure they're not lying? E.g. the US tells Norway they should say "yeah sure we won't arrest and extradite you," then go back on their word and arrest him as soon as he enters the country. The US makes some under-the-table bribes or threats to be sure Norway goes along with this scheme. Something along the lines of "It sure would be a shame if we tanked your economy by making it illegal for US businesses to operate in Norway...those juicy Internet taps Snowden claims we have, well we can't confirm or deny them, but we might or might not know certain delicate things that were said in private by Norwegian politicians, and we might or might not know about certain financial relationships between certain wealthy Norweigans and high-ranking politicians, and it sure would be a shame if the things we might or might not know became public and had unfortunate consequences for your party's political position...now let's talk about how you're going to handle this Snowden situation..." Also as other posters have pointed out, the US could simply send a CIA team to kidnap or murder him. Norwegian counterintelligence is presumably a lot weaker than Russia's, and their politicians presumably a lot more afraid of the US, so it's probably a lot less risky for the US to run an op like that in Norway than in Russia.
- vegardx 11y agoFirst of all because extradition is handled in the courts, not the parliament. And given how popular he is in most of Europe it would surprise me if any politician want to touch it. Helping the US would ensure political suicide. And come on, snatch and grab inside a sovereign state, that is a close ally and with all the media attention his has. You don't really need to be an intelligence service to notice a guy like Snowden suddenly disappearing. Ask Israel how much we like it when foreign states interfere within our borders. They are still more or less out in the cold after they executed the wrong guy. A Norwegian citizen, within Norwegian borders. You just don't do that.