6 ms·

I think there isn't anything most people feel about this kind of overtime. Some people prioritize work/life balance, spending time with friends and family, and

by zjaffee 11y ago

I think there isn't anything most people feel about this kind of overtime. Some people prioritize work/life balance, spending time with friends and family, and focusing on a wide variety of hobbies, others prioritize their careers, achieving big things as an engineer beyond what they would be capable of only working 40 hours a week. Neither lifestyle is better than the other when speaking objectively, it just depends on the person. People who choose to work for Pinterest know what they are getting into, they have one of the most intense and accomplished engineering organizations out there period. While this kind of a culture might be toxic to some, others dream of a life where they are surrounded by engineers who want to work just as hard as them to accomplish a ton in their careers. People on both sides judge each other on online forums way to much, and there is no need. One group isn't better than the other, and no one should feel pressure to be on either side of this fight. Its this pressure that makes college students feel inadequate.

superuser2 11y ago
Companies are generally seeking to hire the latter type of engineer; you are required to become one or you don't get (decent) work. Case in point: http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/download/Recruiting%20Giants.pdf http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/download/Recruiting%20Giants.pd...
geon 11y ago
> beyond what they would be capable of only working 40 hours a week. I believe that's a fallacy. Especially in software you just won't get more work done by working longer hours. Your 60 h week will at best be 40 h work + 20 h zooning out. at worst, it'll be 20 h work + 40 h frustration and self loathing because you can't focus on your work.
- xyience 11y ago
  8 hours / day over 5 days, or 40 hours a week however you like, is a magic number with no real psychological basis. It certainly didn't come about for the benefit of creatives, the subgroup of software devs who can and often do benefit from far more than 40 hours per week "working" and who only by putting in more hours can accomplish their goals. Try telling Michelangelo that if only he had forced himself to stick to 40 hours a week he could have accomplished all he did and even more greatness. Zoning out probably happens to us all, but some are quite capable of limiting it in duration and/or frequency by quite a large degree, or turning it to 'productive zoning out' whereby you progress on a relatively boring task while thinking of other things, some of which might even be what you'll do once the boring groundwork is complete. Another case, try telling a kid he can become as great as Lee Sedol by only practicing Go and playing games for a maximum of 40 hours a week. Better yet, tell Lee Sedol himself that he could get stronger by playing and studying less! And in our actual field: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=JohnCarmack https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=JohnCarmack et al. It's quite possible for x work + y frustration and self loathing to be x=0 and y=30 as you hope no one notices you coming in late / leaving early and being totally vague about progress during daily meetings. I think those behaviors and 'zoning out' are mostly orthogonal to hours 'worked', though. There's probably some agreement somewhere. I do think a lot of 80 hour, 100 hour work week boasting is just that, boasting, and surely for some doesn't really translate to that many hours of "real work". It comes from creative accounting of work hours and I think is rooted in a poor work/rest of life separation. Think about your startup for a while during dinner? I guess you're technically working, huh? Or for video game testers, your bugs filed / hour playing the game looking for bugs isn't a nice flat line with a sharp drop off after 8 hours, but a lot of people out of the industry will say "you're just playing a video game over and over for 12+ hours a day for weeks and call that work?".
rifung 11y ago
The hatred is natural because in the end both groups are competing for work, and if people are going to work a billion hours, then you're going to be expected to work a billion hours too or go unemployed.. Personally I find it annoying that the article talks about working overtime like it's something to brag about.
pjc50 11y ago
no one should feel pressure to be on either side of this fight The >40h engineer coming into the office on weekends is, by that very act, pressuring the =40h engineers. Besides, this isn't the Apollo programme, this is Pinterest. What's the maximum upside of your accomplishment, a return to Pinterest's stockholders?

by zjaffee 11y ago

superuser2 11y ago

Companies are generally seeking to hire the latter type of engineer; you are required to become one or you don't get (decent) work. Case in point: http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/download/Recruiting%20Giants.pdf http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/download/Recruiting%20Giants.pd...

geon 11y ago

> beyond what they would be capable of only working 40 hours a week. I believe that's a fallacy. Especially in software you just won't get more work done by working longer hours. Your 60 h week will at best be 40 h work + 20 h zooning out. at worst, it'll be 20 h work + 40 h frustration and self loathing because you can't focus on your work.

xyience 11y ago
8 hours / day over 5 days, or 40 hours a week however you like, is a magic number with no real psychological basis. It certainly didn't come about for the benefit of creatives, the subgroup of software devs who can and often do benefit from far more than 40 hours per week "working" and who only by putting in more hours can accomplish their goals. Try telling Michelangelo that if only he had forced himself to stick to 40 hours a week he could have accomplished all he did and even more greatness. Zoning out probably happens to us all, but some are quite capable of limiting it in duration and/or frequency by quite a large degree, or turning it to 'productive zoning out' whereby you progress on a relatively boring task while thinking of other things, some of which might even be what you'll do once the boring groundwork is complete. Another case, try telling a kid he can become as great as Lee Sedol by only practicing Go and playing games for a maximum of 40 hours a week. Better yet, tell Lee Sedol himself that he could get stronger by playing and studying less! And in our actual field: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=JohnCarmack https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=JohnCarmack et al. It's quite possible for x work + y frustration and self loathing to be x=0 and y=30 as you hope no one notices you coming in late / leaving early and being totally vague about progress during daily meetings. I think those behaviors and 'zoning out' are mostly orthogonal to hours 'worked', though. There's probably some agreement somewhere. I do think a lot of 80 hour, 100 hour work week boasting is just that, boasting, and surely for some doesn't really translate to that many hours of "real work". It comes from creative accounting of work hours and I think is rooted in a poor work/rest of life separation. Think about your startup for a while during dinner? I guess you're technically working, huh? Or for video game testers, your bugs filed / hour playing the game looking for bugs isn't a nice flat line with a sharp drop off after 8 hours, but a lot of people out of the industry will say "you're just playing a video game over and over for 12+ hours a day for weeks and call that work?".

rifung 11y ago

The hatred is natural because in the end both groups are competing for work, and if people are going to work a billion hours, then you're going to be expected to work a billion hours too or go unemployed.. Personally I find it annoying that the article talks about working overtime like it's something to brag about.

pjc50 11y ago

no one should feel pressure to be on either side of this fight The >40h engineer coming into the office on weekends is, by that very act, pressuring the =40h engineers. Besides, this isn't the Apollo programme, this is Pinterest. What's the maximum upside of your accomplishment, a return to Pinterest's stockholders?