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Yes, I have made my choice. And frankly, it isn't Python at all. But the fact of the matter is that Python 3 is being actively developed, whereas Python 2 is

Yes, I have made my choice. And frankly, it isn't Python at all. But the fact of the matter is that Python 3 is being actively developed, whereas Python 2 is in maintenance mode, and for how much longer? One of these days, Python 2 will become unsupported, and at that time you either finally move to Python 3, or you fork -- at which point you're no longer, strictly-speaking, programming in Python. You're right that it's also lazy for people to simply demand Python 3 support from the PyPy project without being willing to invest in the effort. I have nothing to add to that, really. I should also add that I'm probably one of the laziest programmers to ever exist, so I'm not trying to demonstrate superiority or anything like that. I'm simply pointing out that refusing to use Python 3 just because it hasn't seen much uptake only perpetuates the problem.

BuckRogers 11y ago
You'd be correct. The distinction is whose fault is that, the lazy Python3 core dev team or the lazy userbase? We'll just assume everyone is lazy in effort towards equality. Python3 was created without any backwards compatibility to make the core dev teams job easier, nothing more nothing less. LAZY?! Yes. That's their prerogative, but the rest of us don't have to use it either. When I say lazy in this post, I mean simply acting on one's self-interests. Because that's what every party involved here is doing. It's important to note the difference between Python the language, and CPython. Using Python2 doesn't mean you're using some deprecated language, there's virtually no difference. That's what made the break such a shame honestly. Moving to Python3 with new code is easy. Most people just have few great reasons to now with their existing projects. People need to stop harassing the community and start harassing Guido van Rossum and the core dev team. Usually when people make a mistake, people fix it. GvR and his rogue band of developers have not corrected the Python3 mistake in any way. They've simply continued their mistake for so long, that people are becoming twisted thinking that it's EVERYONE ELSE who is at fault! Amazing really. CPython2 maintenance mode is just a way for the core dev team to maintain their grip around this whole debacle. If they had the guts to dump it in 2015 they would've lost complete control of the situation. It wasn't out of compassion as they say. Because they simply removed the incentive for a 3rd party to swoop in and takeover CPython2. Even that is backfiring now. People[0] are noticing how Python3 is turning into feature soup, which is never an improvement. Thus Python2's conservatism is starting to be seen as an asset. As far as CPython3 being under active development, so is PyPy and it's superior to CPython. The language doesn't change too much at this point. Python is Python for the most part. When the time comes for someone on 2 to move to 3, it will be a non-issue. They're not "losing out" today in any way by acting in their best interests using 2. Python3 has nothing that didn't already exist as a 3rd party library, nor does it have anything that doesn't exist in form of a backport. Thus technical innovation contained within is zero. Programmers aren't stupid. And I think the PSF folks think we are. Or just blatantly disregard the community that truly made Python what it is. The existing Python2 community is overtly disrespected when called "lazy" and all this type of harassment that goes on. I know I'm in the majority opinion because upvotes don't lie. I'm just a guy who likes "Python", the language. I can't blame you for not using it and honestly, what a mess Guido and his core dev team has created right? Python is my preference but I'm not held hostage by the PSF or Python3. I use Python2, Python3, Boo, PyPy. I don't hate Python3 and don't know anyone who does. It's just no slam dunk, and that's the core development team's fault- and they may lose their battle against Python fans as a result. I do highly dislike the groupthink about Python3, with a portion of the Python community on this topic. One more thing to add, is Python3 inevitable? No. It just fragmented the Python ecosystem. Nothing more. We all won't be on a single version again. GvR and his band of rogue developers should be ashamed of themselves. Again, change happens from the bottom up. Not top down. They failed the community and should abdicate their roles but I'm afraid their egos are too big. [0]http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.html http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.ht...
- baq 11y ago
  wow, talk about ego. i disagree with pretty much your whole post, especially with conclusions you draw (abdicate? really?) and with most of the site you cite. (PEP501 is madness, never heard of it until now.) i think you should abdicate from posting on HN about Python. you introduce conflict where there was only laziness. go to politics, leave engineers out of it.
  - BuckRogers 11y ago
    Ok glad you voiced your opinion that you disagree. I hope you feel better now, since it's clear what I have to say is so true that you're tormented to post a response. Next time that would be better done with a downvote because you have zero to add. Reading comprehension is key. I was defending against those creating conflict. There's nothing more political than Python3. And overthrow all BDFLs. That was the whole point, that went right over your head. You are not an engineer. Go back to Reddit. The irony of lazy people calling other people lazy is pretty hilarious. Since you harass the PyPy team and 90% of the Python community to port to 3 while you remain a non-contributing zero? There's only one thing to say to you: Get to porting.
    - dang 11y ago
      This comment breaks the HN guidelines, and unfortunately you've been doing so quite a bit in other comments too. We ban accounts that do this, so please stop doing it. Instead, please (re)-read the following and post civilly and substantively or not at all: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
      - BuckRogers 11y ago
        I read those links and as far as I see, I was confronting other folks who were breaking this rule- 'Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. ' While adding a lot of new substance to a topic that breaks the mold of "port PyPy to Python3" and how to achieve those goals. Perhaps my tone was a little strong and regrettable. I did break this one by accident but mostly out of frustration to a substanceless post. I regret the error. 'Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted. '

BuckRogers 11y ago

You'd be correct. The distinction is whose fault is that, the lazy Python3 core dev team or the lazy userbase? We'll just assume everyone is lazy in effort towards equality. Python3 was created without any backwards compatibility to make the core dev teams job easier, nothing more nothing less. LAZY?! Yes. That's their prerogative, but the rest of us don't have to use it either. When I say lazy in this post, I mean simply acting on one's self-interests. Because that's what every party involved here is doing. It's important to note the difference between Python the language, and CPython. Using Python2 doesn't mean you're using some deprecated language, there's virtually no difference. That's what made the break such a shame honestly. Moving to Python3 with new code is easy. Most people just have few great reasons to now with their existing projects. People need to stop harassing the community and start harassing Guido van Rossum and the core dev team. Usually when people make a mistake, people fix it. GvR and his rogue band of developers have not corrected the Python3 mistake in any way. They've simply continued their mistake for so long, that people are becoming twisted thinking that it's EVERYONE ELSE who is at fault! Amazing really. CPython2 maintenance mode is just a way for the core dev team to maintain their grip around this whole debacle. If they had the guts to dump it in 2015 they would've lost complete control of the situation. It wasn't out of compassion as they say. Because they simply removed the incentive for a 3rd party to swoop in and takeover CPython2. Even that is backfiring now. People[0] are noticing how Python3 is turning into feature soup, which is never an improvement. Thus Python2's conservatism is starting to be seen as an asset. As far as CPython3 being under active development, so is PyPy and it's superior to CPython. The language doesn't change too much at this point. Python is Python for the most part. When the time comes for someone on 2 to move to 3, it will be a non-issue. They're not "losing out" today in any way by acting in their best interests using 2. Python3 has nothing that didn't already exist as a 3rd party library, nor does it have anything that doesn't exist in form of a backport. Thus technical innovation contained within is zero. Programmers aren't stupid. And I think the PSF folks think we are. Or just blatantly disregard the community that truly made Python what it is. The existing Python2 community is overtly disrespected when called "lazy" and all this type of harassment that goes on. I know I'm in the majority opinion because upvotes don't lie. I'm just a guy who likes "Python", the language. I can't blame you for not using it and honestly, what a mess Guido and his core dev team has created right? Python is my preference but I'm not held hostage by the PSF or Python3. I use Python2, Python3, Boo, PyPy. I don't hate Python3 and don't know anyone who does. It's just no slam dunk, and that's the core development team's fault- and they may lose their battle against Python fans as a result. I do highly dislike the groupthink about Python3, with a portion of the Python community on this topic. One more thing to add, is Python3 inevitable? No. It just fragmented the Python ecosystem. Nothing more. We all won't be on a single version again. GvR and his band of rogue developers should be ashamed of themselves. Again, change happens from the bottom up. Not top down. They failed the community and should abdicate their roles but I'm afraid their egos are too big. [0]http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.html http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.ht...

baq 11y ago
wow, talk about ego. i disagree with pretty much your whole post, especially with conclusions you draw (abdicate? really?) and with most of the site you cite. (PEP501 is madness, never heard of it until now.) i think you should abdicate from posting on HN about Python. you introduce conflict where there was only laziness. go to politics, leave engineers out of it.
- BuckRogers 11y ago
  Ok glad you voiced your opinion that you disagree. I hope you feel better now, since it's clear what I have to say is so true that you're tormented to post a response. Next time that would be better done with a downvote because you have zero to add. Reading comprehension is key. I was defending against those creating conflict. There's nothing more political than Python3. And overthrow all BDFLs. That was the whole point, that went right over your head. You are not an engineer. Go back to Reddit. The irony of lazy people calling other people lazy is pretty hilarious. Since you harass the PyPy team and 90% of the Python community to port to 3 while you remain a non-contributing zero? There's only one thing to say to you: Get to porting.
  - dang 11y ago
    This comment breaks the HN guidelines, and unfortunately you've been doing so quite a bit in other comments too. We ban accounts that do this, so please stop doing it. Instead, please (re)-read the following and post civilly and substantively or not at all: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
    - BuckRogers 11y ago
      I read those links and as far as I see, I was confronting other folks who were breaking this rule- 'Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. ' While adding a lot of new substance to a topic that breaks the mold of "port PyPy to Python3" and how to achieve those goals. Perhaps my tone was a little strong and regrettable. I did break this one by accident but mostly out of frustration to a substanceless post. I regret the error. 'Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted. '